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Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM

View original postI do see your points that you've made, but seeing as how you are bound and determined not to see any of mine because the wording of both Ghavrel's and my statements can be nitpicked away and therefore the broader implications ignored, there doesn't seem to be much point in continuing. You disagree and I get that. I'm frustrated and I hope you at least get that.

My opinion is that the supposed "nitpicking" is actually quite important, because from what I can see Ghav's views are much more nuanced than how you summarized them. But if you're getting frustrated with my attempts to clarify those nuances, it's probably best I leave it up to Ghav, if he wants to - after all, I can't be sure I'm entirely correct in my interpretations of what he writes.
View original postHave a nice day and all that.

Same to you.
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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2826 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 858 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 772 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 843 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1331 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1419 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 785 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1433 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1391 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1609 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1405 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 873 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1399 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1606 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1687 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1260 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 812 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 829 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1331 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 872 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1392 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1336 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1348 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1192 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1257 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 855 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1297 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 844 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1248 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1339 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1255 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1303 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1533 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1319 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1403 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 773 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1278 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 813 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 766 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1294 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1211 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1369 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1298 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1315 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1396 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1410 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1390 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1202 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1320 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1642 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1480 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1267 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1279 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1335 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1322 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1339 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1202 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1138 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1229 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1154 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1337 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1249 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1188 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1269 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1154 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1247 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1275 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1197 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 713 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1516 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1382 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1609 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1183 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1316 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1283 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1440 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1423 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 718 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 779 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1381 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1242 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1233 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1267 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 906 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1412 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1257 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 837 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1343 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1193 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1394 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1306 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1146 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1408 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1203 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1194 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1365 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 797 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1257 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1375 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1315 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1336 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1296 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 776 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1336 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1300 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1272 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 827 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1226 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1360 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1249 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1265 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 1166 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1255 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1291 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1409 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1389 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1227 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1345 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 755 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1266 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1268 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1225 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1435 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1348 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1410 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1411 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1641 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1484 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1353 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1320 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 815 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 745 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1405 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1377 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1501 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 729 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1204 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1201 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1233 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1289 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 741 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 733 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 724 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1212 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 771 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1270 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 763 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1198 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1301 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1388 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1211 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 764 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1293 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1287 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1167 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 782 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1171 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1130 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1319 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 775 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1456 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 1994 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1347 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1219 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1412 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 1963 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1381 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 1949 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1376 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1789 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1598 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1035 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1304 Views
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