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Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts Send a noteboard - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM

They were some ruthless bastards without a doubt. I was sinply objecting the over simplified notion that one day the Crusders just up and decided to attack the poor Muslims who were minding their business.

The other point I was trying to make is that the West and the Middle started off on fairly even footing and Islam was slowing left behind as the European society grew in leaps and bounds. As you mentioned these cultures interacted to fair degree why did the Muslims nations get left so far behind? It was not becuase they were colonized.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 2946 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 945 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 845 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 908 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1441 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1548 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 853 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1550 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1510 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1734 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1535 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 942 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1531 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1753 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1820 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1391 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 874 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 902 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1471 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 937 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1519 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1457 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1490 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1322 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1392 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 930 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1442 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 903 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1379 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1453 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1389 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1461 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1660 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1449 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1535 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 840 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1412 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 885 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 832 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1432 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1317 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1502 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1452 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1455 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1532 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1539 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1506 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1354 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1441 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1786 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1600 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1395 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1428 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1463 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1461 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1481 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1330 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1291 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1339 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1292 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1485 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1385 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1310 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1387 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1295 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1366 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1393 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1348 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 779 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1649 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1514 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1727 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1318 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1426 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1394 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1554 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1572 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 786 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 846 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1506 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1409 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1381 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1376 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 977 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1540 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1399 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 896 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1460 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1302 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1531 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1440 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1297 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1564 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1353 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1329 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1484 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 863 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1377 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1493 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1451 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1467 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1412 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 847 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1466 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1421 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1394 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 893 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1342 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1476 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1371 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1390 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 1302 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1375 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1408 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1523 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1507 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1357 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1469 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 822 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1409 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1414 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1357 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1558 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1462 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1552 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1553 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1771 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1611 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1461 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1459 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 882 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 813 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1519 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1507 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1636 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 786 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1314 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1321 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1374 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1415 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 807 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 797 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 802 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1332 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 843 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1379 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 838 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1306 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1442 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1527 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1354 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 831 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1410 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1410 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1281 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 845 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1331 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1247 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1418 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 842 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1599 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2138 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1478 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1357 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1551 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2128 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1521 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2104 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1502 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1922 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1733 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1118 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1434 Views
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