Active Users:301 Time:02/05/2024 05:48:19 PM
Rightly or wrongly, I disagree. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/11/2009 08:48:25 AM
Tripoli or Somalia, or even our own coastal waters, the Navy in particular has a long tradition of teaching pirates how to dance in the air. The rules are a bit different these days, but the military tribunals are not kangaroo courts or star chambers, and have never been limited to trying soldiers of nations we're at war with. Those pirates were never official members of some other country's navy. Indeed, all those treaties we have like the Geneva Convention are designed to give special protection to enemy military personnel, not the other way around. Enemy militaries are assumed to be composed of decent men and women operating under strict rules and guidelines themselves, and thus our treaties are designed to hold them accountable only for violations of those treaties. An enemy soldier can be captured after shooting up dozens of our troops and expect three square meals a day and release after the conclusion of hostilities, because they followed the rules. The ones who break those rules can subject to summary execution, like spies. These various terrorists and insurgents don't follow those rules, and you want to give them access to our court system?

When we are talking about foriegners captured in foriegn lands by military forces, it is a clear case for military tribunals not civilian courts, the exact terminology decribing the person - enemy soldier, terrorist, enemy combatant, insurgent - are just word games and we all know it.

No, the exact terminology has been made into word games in this case, and that's what bothers me. We had an administration declare, "We don't torture, " on the grounds of having redefined things we recognize under treaty as torture to be otherwise. This is not an arena in which we can afford to let anyone play word games, but we have. Johnson getting away with declaring "war" on poverty was annoying; this is dangerous.

That's why I fear a tribunal would turn into a star chamber, not because I distrust our military personnel, but because I distrust our civilian leaders. Members of our armed forces may object to illegal orders, may protest, may refuse to become accomplices by obeying them, but rarely can they prevent them being executed. To whom may they appeal for justice? The International War Crimes Tribunal we proposed and then rejected when it said we must be subject to it also?

And I still contend the Barbary Pirates were a navy, if an irregular one. Certainly they didn't observe the Geneva Convention first agreed upon in 1864. They gave allegiance to a country and political leader, not a cause, and not only did they obey that leader both when told to pirate and when told to cease, but other nations, including France and Britain as well as the US, negotiated relief from piracy with diplomatic envoys of nations and leaders they recognized as legitimate. They negotiated an end to the piracy with heads of state, not pirates (or at least, not shipboard pirates; whether the Pasha of Tripoli was a pirate or rightfully treated as a head of state is something to discuss with other contemporary heads of state, but the First Barbary War began not with an act of piracy, but a declaration of war from that Pasha when Jefferson refused to continue tributes on becoming President. )
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No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden? - 20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM 997 Views
oO uhm, what? - 20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM 482 Views
Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started. - 20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM 509 Views
on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession. - 20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM 506 Views
As it seems we will. - 24/11/2009 09:41:18 AM 485 Views
New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial - 20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM 437 Views
Its to salve their conscinse - 20/11/2009 01:55:08 AM 439 Views
That's exactly the problem! - 20/11/2009 01:58:37 AM 464 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country - 20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM 465 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it. - 20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM 492 Views
It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended. - 20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM 379 Views
Spare me the bullshit. - 20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM 375 Views
I will if you will. - 20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM 464 Views
No, you won't. You never will. - 20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM 361 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem. - 23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM 461 Views
No, that's not right. You don't read very closely. - 23/11/2009 02:21:54 PM 375 Views
In this case my reading comprehension is more than adequate. - 24/11/2009 09:16:39 AM 421 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow. - 20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM 417 Views
Allow me to point out... - 20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM 398 Views
Well, Timothy McVeigh was in OUR Army. - 20/11/2009 03:55:18 PM 515 Views
That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group - 20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM 440 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance. - 20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM 385 Views
I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one - 21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM 398 Views
Yes. "Terrorist group". - 21/11/2009 12:02:04 PM 475 Views
Yeah I guess you're right - 22/11/2009 01:34:34 AM 386 Views
Military struggles involve militaries. - 20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM 550 Views
Once again, bullshit. - 20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM 521 Views
Aaaah, I see; it's a question of who's the master, is it? - 23/11/2009 07:47:43 AM 527 Views
You're wasting your time - 23/11/2009 02:24:57 PM 423 Views
This is wrong - 20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM 421 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli. - 23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM 469 Views
Nevertheless, uniforms or a nation is not a requirement - 23/11/2009 03:09:22 PM 431 Views
Rightly or wrongly, I disagree. - 24/11/2009 08:48:25 AM 477 Views
That is bad - 21/11/2009 12:31:04 AM 410 Views
You're not going far enough, man. - 20/11/2009 11:03:08 AM 457 Views
Blah blah blah blah blah *NM* - 20/11/2009 01:57:39 PM 192 Views
I just can't imagine how they expect to get a fair trial. - 20/11/2009 03:17:28 AM 383 Views
The Code of Conduct - 20/11/2009 07:23:02 PM 487 Views
The mention of God is interesting. *NM* - 21/11/2009 05:24:14 AM 306 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad... - 22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM 542 Views
I understand your "jihadist narrative" - 22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM 527 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists - 23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM 497 Views
They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists. - 24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM 618 Views
not every soldier in history has worn a uniform - 24/11/2009 11:00:34 PM 293 Views
One example would be Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys - 25/11/2009 06:23:08 PM 469 Views
Just for fun, let's call them fundamentalist vigilantes. *NM* - 24/11/2009 11:12:09 PM 167 Views
Works for me. - 01/12/2009 09:12:29 AM 448 Views

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