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Europe impresses me for one simple reason: Joel Send a noteboard - 03/09/2009 09:21:28 AM
Sixty years ago the continent was a pile of rubble and we were the recognized political, military and economic masters of the world; now their living standards, wages and free time are higher than ours while our commitment to reactionary principles has seen continual erosion of the success achieved through commitment to progressive ones. Put another way, when the term "Old Europe" actually fit, when their governments vainly sought to preserve a status quo in which they were ascendant while we fought for liberty and empowerment, my sympathies would've been with America, but since the role reversal I long for the ideals that made this country the leader of the Free World, by example rather than dictate.
But, OK, fine; say you're right and a government healthcare system would be worthless to anyone: Private insurance will still be out there, and if that's so much better that's where people will go. Socialism doesn't kill capitalism, it improves it.

You do realise that is the easy solution for Washington? You're saying you would rather politicians have more money to mess around with than have to make difficult decisions. Such as spending cuts. Like a child that can take more from mommy instead of living on a budget. Do you really love politicians that much?
Besides, raising taxes will promote tax evation and moving abroad.

Why are you so impressed with Europe anyway?

Tax evasion by moving abroad; I hear this constantly. See my other responses: WTF are they gonna go? Europe, or Canada, where they'll be taxed far more? China, where "tax audit" means the "peoples" army takes you and your family to a prison labor camp in the dead of night? Seriously, let's get real here, folks.

I'm not saying we should have a public healthcare system totally devoid of oversight and accountability. Stringent oversight and accountability should be its primary aspects; the lack of oversight and accountability is possibly the biggest systemic problem within American healthcare and the reason its cost is growing so much faster than in places like Europe and Canada. The disconnect between treatment and actual health as well as EXISTING death panels and denial of service through private insurance can be traced to precisely those lacks. As can the price, effectiveness and side effects of a variety of drugs; just today it was announced Pfizer will pay $2.3 billion as the result of a federal case against them for marketing a drug to treat conditions for which it never received FDA approval.

What I AM saying is that if even all the oversight in the world results in an inefficient, overpriced and ineffective system in which no one wants to participate--the private option will still be there. I find it revealing that the acolytes of competitiveness, who insist the private option is always the least expensive and highest quality, don't think that theory sound enough to test by competition with a government option. Even where industry lobbies have deigned to consider a public option from a government the seem to feel their servant it's invariably been with two caveats:

1) The industrys current cost limiting measures CANNOT be adopted by a public healthcare system AND

2) They cannot be prohibited in the continued private systems.

It seems as if those who sound the clarion call to competition on a level playing field and may the best man win don't think that's them.
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For Europeans who don't understand why Americans are against ObamaCare - 03/09/2009 04:24:35 AM 1298 Views
I'd be happy to tax top "earners" more and suffer Europes economic "collapse. " - 03/09/2009 04:30:31 AM 754 Views
The US will never work with socialism. - 03/09/2009 04:40:21 AM 825 Views
Re: The US will never work with socialism. - 03/09/2009 04:58:47 AM 815 Views
I don't think the mistrust of the government is really all that overblown - 03/09/2009 05:04:34 AM 740 Views
It's advanced beyond what it was during the Revolution, I think. - 03/09/2009 05:18:22 AM 782 Views
I would say it's grown with the government - 03/09/2009 05:23:52 AM 764 Views
Re: I don't think the mistrust of the government is really all that overblown - 04/09/2009 03:30:23 AM 709 Views
If I lived in France I wouldn't trust the Government either. - 04/09/2009 03:44:55 AM 771 Views
*laughs* the point is taken. *NM* - 04/09/2009 04:24:07 AM 498 Views
Re: The US will never work with socialism. - 04/09/2009 03:28:24 AM 864 Views
How much more can we really tax the wealthy?? - 03/09/2009 04:41:14 AM 678 Views
Sadly, I think going back to the Clinton rates would help - 03/09/2009 04:42:54 AM 645 Views
I'm ok with that....not super excited....but ok with it - 03/09/2009 04:57:32 AM 665 Views
A lot; before Reagans "reforms" we already taxed them less than any other industrialized state did. - 03/09/2009 05:06:00 AM 788 Views
I'm in the lower-middle class tax bracket - 03/09/2009 05:13:39 AM 710 Views
It's both, IMHO. - 03/09/2009 05:29:41 AM 641 Views
I hear a lot of socialism coming from you..... - 03/09/2009 05:19:08 AM 646 Views
Re: I hear a lot of socialism coming from you..... - 03/09/2009 05:40:32 AM 735 Views
Nice non-answer answer..... - 03/09/2009 05:52:04 AM 741 Views
You want detailed answers that require detailed data I don't have. - 03/09/2009 06:06:55 AM 797 Views
Here are some facts and analyses..... - 03/09/2009 02:40:22 PM 857 Views
The Heritage Foundation, huh? - 03/09/2009 03:01:17 PM 863 Views
The non-working wealthy? Please quantify..... - 03/09/2009 03:31:58 PM 819 Views
Paris Hilton? - 04/09/2009 03:43:19 AM 726 Views
You're so full of shit on this issue I don't know where to begin. - 04/09/2009 03:15:55 AM 832 Views
Re: You're so full of shit on this issue I don't know where to begin. - 04/09/2009 03:59:21 AM 920 Views
Less than 200 people were said to be US persons with Swiss accounts - 04/09/2009 04:16:24 AM 717 Views
And yet account for many millions of dollars; what does that say...? - 04/09/2009 04:21:57 AM 714 Views
It's statistically insignificant and your hyperbole is reminiscent of screaming guests on CNN. - 04/09/2009 02:07:31 PM 648 Views
Well, look at this way: - 04/09/2009 02:24:03 PM 781 Views
That's not a solution. - 05/09/2009 02:39:12 AM 783 Views
The Soviets weren't socialist, or even communist, so it's a false comparison. - 05/09/2009 03:09:06 AM 727 Views
Okay, now you've just gone into Kool-aid drinking territory. - 05/09/2009 04:32:07 AM 846 Views
Communist THEORY is predicated on democratic participation at every level,totally absent in the USSR - 05/09/2009 04:55:00 AM 967 Views
FINALLY!!! - 07/09/2009 10:22:53 AM 758 Views
Ever heard of the 20-80 rule? - 04/09/2009 04:28:54 AM 642 Views
Yes, and 90% of people are idiots. - 05/09/2009 02:41:35 AM 949 Views
Re: Yes, and 90% of people are idiots. - 07/09/2009 10:09:30 AM 762 Views
Top earners? Please define.....what income and how much more? *NM* - 03/09/2009 04:52:25 AM 502 Views
That would be open to definition, and should change with inflation. - 03/09/2009 05:13:02 AM 897 Views
What is your justification for taking over 50% of anyone's income? - 03/09/2009 05:28:22 AM 845 Views
That's a good example of why I say the rate has to be set to cost of living. - 03/09/2009 05:50:16 AM 865 Views
Still no comment on the fact that 40% of Americans don't pay any income taxes? - 03/09/2009 02:32:12 PM 780 Views
To what 40% do you refer? - 03/09/2009 02:42:55 PM 643 Views
Dude, you are not making this easy..... - 03/09/2009 03:38:01 PM 679 Views
No one "gets money from the IRS. " - 04/09/2009 02:55:02 AM 686 Views
Actually with EIC you can get money back that you never paid in. - 04/09/2009 02:56:43 AM 681 Views
It MIGHT be possible with the EIC, but in practice few people get more than they paid. - 04/09/2009 03:43:36 AM 735 Views
I don't know, I've known plenty of people that have gotten more back than they paid in - 04/09/2009 03:46:29 AM 809 Views
A neat trick then. - 04/09/2009 04:09:58 AM 808 Views
To be fair - 04/09/2009 04:50:20 AM 743 Views
Ah, gotcha. - 04/09/2009 04:53:58 AM 758 Views
Yet another example of your ignorance on tax policy. - 04/09/2009 03:19:39 AM 631 Views
The word I notice is "welfare" - 04/09/2009 03:57:01 AM 743 Views
I wouldn't say that's what it means.... - 04/09/2009 04:02:40 AM 749 Views
It's what welfare means to me... - 04/09/2009 04:32:17 AM 756 Views
I was just talking about EIC as a form of welfare, not welfare welfare. *NM* - 04/09/2009 04:45:13 AM 433 Views
yes, I get that now. *NM* - 04/09/2009 05:02:53 AM 417 Views
*NM* - 04/09/2009 05:14:01 AM 413 Views
Not necessarily - 04/09/2009 04:11:41 AM 692 Views
*shrugs* I have a soft heart. *NM* - 04/09/2009 04:30:52 AM 424 Views
It's a credit for people who file a return on income that's been taxed. - 04/09/2009 04:19:57 AM 685 Views
It is only for the WORKING poor, yes. - 04/09/2009 02:12:55 PM 670 Views
Mean it may be, but hardly illegal. - 04/09/2009 02:31:16 PM 699 Views
How does the business benefit? - 04/09/2009 04:54:27 PM 700 Views
I didn't realize you meant literal withholding. - 05/09/2009 03:03:32 AM 719 Views
That's a no-no, Joel - 03/09/2009 07:32:03 AM 683 Views
Europe impresses me for one simple reason: - 03/09/2009 09:21:28 AM 736 Views
No real comments, just 100% agree with you....plus the $12 trillion is terrifying to me. *NM* - 03/09/2009 04:33:39 AM 326 Views
If that scares you, check this out! - 03/09/2009 04:48:56 AM 834 Views
Excellent post - the US government is not capable of running HC..... - 03/09/2009 04:40:19 AM 628 Views
There is one thing the government did right - 03/09/2009 04:41:36 AM 744 Views
The bailout, some of it, was necessary..... - 03/09/2009 04:51:03 AM 742 Views
I still think it was too one sided. - 03/09/2009 05:21:45 AM 772 Views
It depends on your level of cynicism - 03/09/2009 05:38:53 AM 796 Views
when have they ever cut the fat? - 03/09/2009 08:35:36 PM 724 Views
Contrary to popular belief, they are quite good at it - 03/09/2009 09:05:15 PM 746 Views
Well there is only one catch *NM* - 03/09/2009 10:56:00 PM 415 Views
This doesn't make sense to me. - 03/09/2009 08:33:18 AM 734 Views
The key phrase is "should be. " - 03/09/2009 09:38:15 AM 905 Views
Re: The key phrase is "should be. " - 03/09/2009 09:47:39 AM 784 Views
That sounds like a good stop gap to me. - 03/09/2009 09:50:57 AM 795 Views
In fairness, most Europeans don't seem to realize what ObamaCare is. - 03/09/2009 02:34:01 PM 771 Views
What makes you think we do? - 03/09/2009 09:11:06 PM 783 Views
Oh, you don't either. I thought that went without saying. *NM* - 03/09/2009 09:25:54 PM 424 Views
As far as most people I know are concerned, opposition to ObamaCare isn't the issue. - 03/09/2009 11:04:36 PM 867 Views
It's hard not to be horrified with a government as wasteful as ours - 03/09/2009 11:24:59 PM 641 Views
I can understand horror of governments. - 03/09/2009 11:30:23 PM 641 Views
a bit, yes. *NM* - 04/09/2009 04:08:37 AM 441 Views
For Americans who don't understand why Canadians like their public healthcare. - 04/09/2009 04:23:11 AM 759 Views
Correction - 04/09/2009 04:44:32 AM 750 Views
Re: Correction - 04/09/2009 05:05:11 AM 865 Views
In all honesty.... - 04/09/2009 05:18:23 AM 700 Views
Re: In all honesty.... - 04/09/2009 07:19:28 AM 778 Views
Re: Correction - 04/09/2009 05:24:49 PM 707 Views
Re: Correction - 07/09/2009 10:11:45 AM 899 Views
That's a nice theory. - 04/09/2009 02:49:34 PM 762 Views
It's a fact - 04/09/2009 05:21:59 PM 760 Views
Re: It's a fact - 05/09/2009 03:18:39 AM 720 Views

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