View original postThe other problem in the Near East in particular is that there is no sense of national identity for most people in what is called the Arab World (a misnomer, considering Iraqis are descendants of the Babylonians and Assyrians, just like Egyptians are descended from the people who built the pyramids, and so on). Loyalty is first to clan, then to religion. That's why Syria is such a shitshow right now - Assad is being propped up by the Alawis, Iranians and Hezbollah because his enemies are Sunni (though the Iranians have a national identity, unlike everyone to the West of them, Hezbollah is a great example of the clan, then religion mentality). Sunnis in Iraq decided to support ISIS because they hate the Shia. The Kurds, another group with national identity even though they have no country, don't think of their home as Iraq - it's Kurdistan.
Most of the countries in the region do correspond relatively closely to one or a few Ottoman provinces, and in many cases to even older regional identities. Sure, it's not the same as countries which have been actually independent for centuries, but as an inhabitant of a country that had a clearly defined local identity many centuries before becoming actually independent, I can tell you full independence isn't a requirement to develop a national identity. And in the seventy-ish years since their actual independence, most of these countries have focused very strongly on promoting nationalism. Some minority groups may reject that national identity, but that's no different from Catholic Republicans in Northern Ireland, Basques and Catalans in Spain, etc.
As for clans - for a sizeable part of the population, yes, but far from all. The Bedouins and some rural groups in Iraq, Jordan, I guess also Syria, even in Israel, are indeed still to a large extent sticking to their old clan structures, but there are also other regions and the major cities where clans haven't played an important role for centuries.
And I think Cannoli said it pretty well re: 'Arab world'. It's hardly a misnomer. You might as well say the name 'Russia' should be used only for the European part of the country, if you're going to start like that - and those conquests were obviously much, much more recent than the Arab ones.
Terrible thing in Manchester last night.
- 23/05/2017 03:34:11 PM
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You can't stop psychos from doing psychopathic things.
- 23/05/2017 05:40:15 PM
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That's a quite obtuse answer
- 23/05/2017 08:34:20 PM
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Hiding?
- 23/05/2017 08:58:11 PM
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What do you mean, exactly, by "stop making ourselves targets" then?
- 23/05/2017 09:47:43 PM
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First off, we agree completely on one thing
- 23/05/2017 10:51:22 PM
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What hasn't been consistent about our foreign policy in that region?
- 23/05/2017 11:13:57 PM
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I thought it was obvious that I didn't mean consistently shit.
- 23/05/2017 11:36:58 PM
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Don't forget getting an education if you are female *NM*
- 23/05/2017 09:38:26 PM
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They might have a point with that one. I haven't seen much value from it.
- 23/05/2017 09:53:19 PM
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You are going to get rocks thrown at you *NM*
- 23/05/2017 10:29:45 PM
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There aren't very many ways to stop making ourselves a target for the Islamic State.
- 23/05/2017 09:04:56 PM
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I am not willing to give up the kill them all options until we give it a better try *NM*
- 23/05/2017 09:39:38 PM
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All DAESH acts of provocation have the same goal
- 23/05/2017 06:57:00 PM
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That reasoning only works if you view Daesh as a monolithic entity, though.
- 23/05/2017 10:02:01 PM
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The so-called lone wolf attacks are often performed by those unable to go to Syria
- 23/05/2017 10:06:08 PM
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Once again with the monolithic view.
- 23/05/2017 10:21:20 PM
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Is it possible that rather than me overestimating the depth of devotion...
- 23/05/2017 10:33:18 PM
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I don't say you overestimate it, no doubt for some that's true. But they're not all the same. *NM*
- 23/05/2017 11:12:26 PM
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Also, didn't they disavow the whole Dabiq thing when they lost control of the village? *NM*
- 23/05/2017 10:29:23 PM
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I must have missed that, but that sounds about like what I'd expect. 
*NM*
- 23/05/2017 10:31:03 PM
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*NM*
- 23/05/2017 10:31:03 PM
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I mean if that would end it once and for all then we should absolutely do that but...
- 24/05/2017 05:22:29 PM
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There are lots of things we can do. There are few we will do.
- 23/05/2017 08:46:50 PM
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Aren't there significant differences between the Salafis and the Islamic State?
- 23/05/2017 08:58:35 PM
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All extremists are Salafis, not every Salafi is an extremist
- 23/05/2017 09:54:26 PM
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Yeah, I get that.
- 23/05/2017 10:12:45 PM
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Advocating non-terrorist Salafism is like advocating sexual abstinence in college
- 23/05/2017 10:27:22 PM
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I was going to ask when I saw your post above...
- 23/05/2017 11:26:33 PM
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The Saudi royals like us, the people hate us. The Iranian people like us, the Ayatollah hates us.
- 24/05/2017 02:56:57 AM
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See this seems like some common sense stuff to me. How do we get politicians to make good on it? *NM*
- 24/05/2017 05:20:15 PM
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Trump is trying to do some. The 9th Circuit seems to think it can upend all precedent to stop him.
- 24/05/2017 09:46:30 PM
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Picking a concert that would be mostly teenage girls makes it extra disgusting *NM*
- 23/05/2017 09:37:25 PM
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Not really. It's a logical extension of the whole rationale.
- 23/05/2017 09:50:30 PM
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Yes. Also they believe the more outrageous the attack, the sooner the final war will occur. *NM*
- 23/05/2017 10:08:09 PM
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It makes me wonder about the attacker
- 23/05/2017 11:00:40 PM
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I wonder about what these people sea in a good who wants this kind of thing
- 24/05/2017 05:58:25 PM
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Isis Shmisis. Daesh is just the end result of the radicalization of many Muslims.
- 23/05/2017 11:58:42 PM
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Blaming the Ottomans, while largely correct, is less satisfying to them.
- 24/05/2017 03:21:14 AM
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Not to mention, the Ottomans are relative latecomers to the Muslims of the region
- 24/05/2017 11:31:06 AM
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There's lots of nationalist feeling, surely.
- 24/05/2017 06:48:59 PM
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Your errors are legion here.
- 24/05/2017 10:03:53 PM
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Really? I see precisely one point which, according to you, is a factual error.
- 26/05/2017 11:41:00 PM
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You're not looking very hard, then
- 27/05/2017 03:23:36 PM
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At this point we're just arguing about perspective, seems to me.
- 28/05/2017 07:11:55 PM
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Oh, and now, according to the headlines, the son of Libyan immigrants is a "homegrown" terrorist
- 24/05/2017 11:33:42 AM
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You can't do anything
- 24/05/2017 05:00:31 PM
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Be honest. We both know I am a major hardass and you like it. *NM*
- 24/05/2017 05:19:21 PM
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My opinion? We (USA) should either bomb ISIS into oblivion or back off and let them kill each other *NM*
- 24/05/2017 05:38:37 PM
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When I see those girl's faces and think about how easily it could be my 11 year old daughter
- 24/05/2017 05:53:01 PM
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I would prefer to annihilate them, if possible, without boots on the ground.
- 24/05/2017 06:03:49 PM
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I admit my reaction is as much emotional as rational but boots may be needed
- 24/05/2017 06:37:51 PM
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Are you serious?
- 28/05/2017 09:56:07 PM
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There is no tool for not allowing citizens back in the country
- 29/05/2017 10:11:42 PM
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Re: There is no tool for not allowing citizens back in the country *NM*
- 29/05/2017 10:11:52 PM
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Wow, talk about mission creep hitting after just one (incoherent) message
- 30/05/2017 03:07:46 PM
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Speak for yourself.
- 30/05/2017 06:57:16 PM
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You have thus argued for the death of education.
- 31/05/2017 02:51:11 PM
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No, I've argued for substance over form.
- 31/05/2017 07:07:28 PM
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Well, fuck you too then
- 02/06/2017 01:43:47 AM
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*NM*