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In some ways, it probably would've been better if Roe v Wade had never happened. Legolas Send a noteboard - 07/05/2022 08:20:17 PM

Of course, not better for all the women over the past fifty years who would've had to resort to illegal abortions - but if states had simply been allowed to set their own course on abortion, as they were starting to do in the years before Roe, probably the topic wouldn't have dominated American politics for all this time, the debate might not have gotten as extreme and probably the laws in many red states would have been less restrictive than they will be once this decision becomes final.

View original postSecond, even in some dead Red States, the divide is close to 50/50 on permitting abortion when conception is from rape or incest, according to NYT polls. The same polls indicate that while the great majority of Americans support some access to abortion, they also favor restrictions similar to what exist in Europe, which are far more restrictive that what currently exist in Blue States. I believe Germany restricts abortion access after 12 weeks which is less than the 15 in some Red State laws. So stating that Americans favor unlimited access to abortion, i.e. the status quo in Blue States, is not accurate.

There's always two aspects to consider when comparing abortion laws between countries: first of course the headline number, until how many weeks abortion is allowed in general, but secondly also, under which conditions, if any, is abortion still permitted beyond the general cutoff date? Looking at the Mississippi law that led to this decision, it set the limit for elective abortion at 15 weeks which is later than most European countries - but many of those European countries may have various conditions that do actually allow abortion at 15 weeks, or even later. For instance, since you mentioned Germany, they allow abortion after 12 weeks not only for physical health reasons, but also mental health reasons - if the woman is absolutely traumatized by the pregnancy and determined not to bring it to term, but for whatever reason missed the 12 weeks window, she'll still be able to get it.

But yes, for the most part we do have stricter regulations than what is allowed by Roe/Casey - and in most countries though not all, abortion is hardly even a political topic at all anymore.

View original postWhich leads to my final thought on this. Notice all the hyperbole is emanating from the edges? Notice who is conspicuously silent? Republicans not associated with the Religious Right. Why? They realize if Roe vs. Wade is repealed, it could completely fuck up what otherwise looked to be an historic debacle of a midterm election for the Democrats. It would mobilize the vote and possibly save Democratic control of Congress.

It doesn't look like it will be as much of a vote-getter as Democrats were hoping, in the short term - but in the longer term, if it means Republicans lose the automatic support of single-issue pro-life voters, it could certainly hurt them politically, yes. Unless they manage to string them along further by moving the goalposts and starting to look at, say, a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion nationwide - not that that would have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
View original postWhich is exactly how the system is supposed to work. You vote out those who support beliefs contrary to your own. It took 50 years of working the system for the Religious Right to be on the verge of declaring victory over abortion. I'm betting doing the same from the Blue side will take a whole lot less.

Yeah... except the system is pretty broken. As you pointed out above, there would be a clear majority of Americans in favour of some kind of European-type abortion law, allowing it up to a certain point. But with the way the Senate works, said clear majority would still never reach the 60 votes needed to actually pass that law.

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Abortion in the South, and soon, probably all over the country - 25/04/2022 01:26:45 AM 1483 Views
that is the trouble here - 25/04/2022 05:02:46 PM 791 Views
"The party of "bodily autonomy"" - 26/04/2022 04:51:05 PM 644 Views
That is a perverts motte and bailey argument - 26/04/2022 06:27:51 PM 741 Views
The issue is abortion. - 26/04/2022 07:39:00 PM 607 Views
Tell me your feelings about Lochner - 26/04/2022 07:53:00 PM 614 Views
Simple, it was wrongly decided. - 26/04/2022 09:51:27 PM 596 Views
I think that is enough for the day - 26/04/2022 11:07:42 PM 635 Views
I honestly don't give a fig about the constitution here... - 26/04/2022 07:00:57 PM 662 Views
You can't have your cake and eat it too. - 26/04/2022 07:42:51 PM 647 Views
Uhhh - 26/04/2022 07:54:13 PM 626 Views
I mean, yeah. - 26/04/2022 09:58:19 PM 624 Views
You seem to be arguing with an alternate version of me... - 27/04/2022 04:46:46 AM 758 Views
Broad popular support? - 27/04/2022 04:54:49 PM 622 Views
Cannoli is not wrong. - 26/04/2022 05:09:49 PM 671 Views
Cannoli is a contemptuous moron - 26/04/2022 06:56:33 PM 702 Views
I am contemptuous of you (and I suspect your vocabulary skills) - 26/04/2022 09:30:55 PM 679 Views
Was the Catholic Church EVIL . - 26/04/2022 07:01:50 PM 658 Views
Roland, I am neither supporting nor denying any specific theology in my original comment. - 26/04/2022 08:28:31 PM 635 Views
And I am problematizing your claim - 26/04/2022 08:34:17 PM 708 Views
Theodicy - 26/04/2022 08:55:50 PM 684 Views
Re: Theodicy - 26/04/2022 09:45:35 PM 683 Views
and yet... - 26/04/2022 10:35:58 PM 651 Views
What is the Andrea Dworkin line again? - 26/04/2022 11:06:30 PM 619 Views
You're correct about that. We are most assuredly talking past one another. - 26/04/2022 11:39:01 PM 617 Views
Have not had a drink yet. - 26/04/2022 11:46:59 PM 629 Views
Leaked draft opinion - 03/05/2022 06:42:20 PM 683 Views
John Roberts confirms it is real - 03/05/2022 07:37:26 PM 637 Views
Results were leaked, not opinions. - 03/05/2022 08:02:10 PM 580 Views
If you want to parse the history you are welcome to do so. - 03/05/2022 08:32:06 PM 656 Views
You're either being willfully ignorant or disingenuous - 03/05/2022 09:26:49 PM 655 Views
There's a very simple alternate reason - 05/05/2022 06:36:26 AM 657 Views
“Wants to get the word out there ASAP” - 05/05/2022 02:02:00 PM 596 Views
Re: “Wants to get the word out there ASAP” - 06/05/2022 09:18:24 PM 711 Views
He said, not coming up with any retort of his own. - 09/05/2022 03:04:07 PM 593 Views
Re: He said, not coming up with any retort of his own. - 09/05/2022 05:01:43 PM 586 Views
Don't blame me for your failures. - 09/05/2022 05:21:48 PM 633 Views
Leaking also kind of locks in the 5 justices into a more radical decision - 05/05/2022 04:08:58 PM 630 Views
Precisely. - 06/05/2022 09:22:16 PM 585 Views
Obvious intent my ass - 05/05/2022 06:32:10 AM 630 Views
Treasonous Pieces of Junk - 05/05/2022 01:58:23 PM 587 Views
I cannot commit treason - 06/05/2022 09:20:20 PM 617 Views
Neither am I. - 09/05/2022 03:02:54 PM 609 Views
Projecting what? - 09/05/2022 05:02:59 PM 605 Views
Is this a parody account? - 09/05/2022 05:25:39 PM 580 Views
Nope. - 12/05/2022 10:23:24 PM 600 Views
Well, if it's not a parody... - 13/05/2022 07:46:45 PM 601 Views
Go look up what it means to “project” - 13/05/2022 05:04:19 PM 603 Views
Stop shifting the goalposts - 13/05/2022 07:45:21 PM 593 Views
There is no goalpost shifting - 17/05/2022 12:48:18 PM 676 Views
Parody Account: Hypocrite, or Just Stupid? - 17/05/2022 07:26:49 PM 623 Views
actually, Trump was impeached - 05/05/2022 02:05:16 PM 609 Views
By Democrats and a few Republicans - 06/05/2022 09:21:38 PM 638 Views
you wrote: - 06/05/2022 09:34:09 PM 579 Views
Ummm - 06/05/2022 09:42:57 PM 582 Views
Interesting is one word for it... - 05/05/2022 06:38:23 AM 588 Views
That's your thought.... - 06/05/2022 05:34:21 PM 649 Views
Hardly just mine - 06/05/2022 09:23:32 PM 585 Views
Interesting... - 06/05/2022 10:33:56 PM 627 Views
Roe has restrictions - 07/05/2022 03:16:32 AM 609 Views
So popular opinion is what decides recognition of life... - 06/05/2022 10:44:08 PM 616 Views
Nice try - 07/05/2022 03:19:35 AM 581 Views
No one said that, and you know it... - 07/05/2022 05:56:04 AM 594 Views
Well that's a lot of empty noise - 07/05/2022 02:46:48 PM 576 Views
Then stop listening to yourself… - 07/05/2022 06:56:45 PM 710 Views
Serious reading comprehension fail here... - 08/05/2022 05:01:28 PM 628 Views
That is the Catholic Church's position after 1869, but lets do Idaho and LA - 07/05/2022 10:08:39 PM 631 Views
And the Minoans practiced child sacrifice... - 09/05/2022 11:51:44 PM 608 Views
So we are in agreement if we circle around - 10/05/2022 02:34:19 AM 576 Views
Well, we agree it will get worse - 10/05/2022 04:05:33 PM 615 Views
Thanks for explaining why Roe was egregiously wrong. - 09/05/2022 03:56:52 PM 571 Views
Roe imposed nothing - 09/05/2022 05:05:36 PM 624 Views
Actually, it does impose - 09/05/2022 05:19:38 PM 836 Views
Re: Actually, it does impose - 13/05/2022 05:09:04 PM 583 Views
Roe imposed abortion on states that banned it. - 09/05/2022 05:26:56 PM 639 Views
States rights do not trump individual rights - 13/05/2022 05:12:13 PM 608 Views
States rights regulate individual rights - 13/05/2022 07:42:52 PM 632 Views
I am not allowed to get divorced in my state of Texas if my spouse is pregnant. - 15/05/2022 07:59:19 PM 615 Views
Cool - 16/05/2022 12:10:57 AM 667 Views
So our state energy grid - 16/05/2022 01:41:50 AM 635 Views
Wow, not sure I've seen you so angry before - 16/05/2022 08:12:58 AM 661 Views
Are you off your meds? - 16/05/2022 12:35:18 PM 538 Views
I live in the world the US set up Internment Camps in living memory, I known survivors. - 16/05/2022 06:00:07 PM 590 Views
You're literally arguing with yourself. - 16/05/2022 08:00:37 PM 596 Views
That is precisely what I am afraid of - 16/05/2022 08:07:41 PM 542 Views
That can literally be flipped right on to the other side. - 16/05/2022 08:19:02 PM 573 Views
Just a reminder freedom of movement is not in the US Constitution - 16/05/2022 08:25:42 PM 594 Views
Again, you put words into my mouth that I've never said. - 16/05/2022 08:32:38 PM 574 Views
Who the fuck cares? - 17/05/2022 12:54:48 PM 667 Views
Parody account strikes back! - 17/05/2022 07:14:24 PM 586 Views
a few final thoughts - 07/05/2022 07:18:38 PM 674 Views
In some ways, it probably would've been better if Roe v Wade had never happened. - 07/05/2022 08:20:17 PM 721 Views
I can always count on you for rational discussion. *NM* - 07/05/2022 09:19:57 PM 382 Views
He really is wonderful. - 09/05/2022 04:29:00 PM 633 Views
Let me join in. Yes. Legolas is good people. *NM* - 10/05/2022 02:52:37 PM 323 Views
History and Histrionic or perhaps - 07/05/2022 10:25:23 PM 639 Views
The denominational distinctions within Christiandom aren't of concern to me... - 08/05/2022 05:09:12 PM 723 Views
There is an easy answer for you. - 09/05/2022 03:53:42 PM 611 Views

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