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English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words Dan Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM
'Female' is an incredibly common noun used in day to day American language, absolutely transparently. Never used with any sort of medical, scientific, or reductive connotation, ever. Vivien's critique is actually fairly radical in that it does fly in the face of ordinary language here. I've certainly never encountered this before, and my understanding of the nuances of American English is probably perfect. I'm not saying that to posture, but just to remind that connotation is a very delicate thing at this level. You wouldn't lecture Demosthenes on his use of καιγαρτοι, would you?


(I'm going to preemptively put a copy/paste edit in here from below to clarify)

I'll probably get some flack for this, but frankly, it should be emphasized more. I'm not being a bigot, I am saying the following. Despite the fact that Americans eat cheeseburgers and hate healthcare, American English is in fact a very complex and nuanced language that people ought to respect just a bit more, particularly with issues this subtle. It should be afforded the same respect as Japanese or Attic Greek. Being raised here does matter in some of these liminal cases. Being intelligent, watching movies, and reading books will not help someone on an issue that is this complex. You need to be a native speaker living here.




I am no native speaker. I just checked. The word can be used as noun.

Yes. But mostly for animals. If you go around talking about a movie in German and all the "Weibchen" in it, I dare say people will call you a male chauvinist pig as well. :P


:D I'm with you.

I'm fairly averse to using it as a noun except for animals in English too, though I know that's all to do with how you use and don't use femelle (anymore) in French.

It would be extremely derogatory to use the word a noun for a human woman, except in a medical contex or as a short cut for "genre féminin". Another acceptable use would be for humour (non offensive gender humour, for e.g....)

I guess it has a lot to do with culture. Femelle for French speakers reduces the gender to its reproductive function and was mostly used in other contexts by mysogynists or men wishing to dismiss or attack the gender. Since feminism, the word is barely ever used except for animals and a proper scientific term (totally non offensive when used this way). A few decades ago however, a priest could for example (and if you go back far enough, often would) refer to Eve as a "femelle" (while referring to Adam as a Man), but nowadays a priest doing that would really ruffle his flock.

Anyway, culturally I still find it really weird and odd to use female as a noun for women in English when the context isn't scientific, and when others use it sounds derogative and rude (even aggressive), whatever the real intent. Based on the argument, it sounds like with English speakers the word has gained the same derogative stigma for some women, but it's not as widely established culturally/linguistically as it is in French. In French even the adjective could be derogative out of the scientific context, and féminin is much preferred for all the others.

Typically, mâle has none of those connotations. Using it over homme (man) for a human male is often even flattering. French can be incredibly sexist in some of its usages.

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This message last edited by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:07:12 AM
  • Edit 2 by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:07:12 AM
  • Edit 1 by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:04:27 AM
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The Hunger Games gets a ... different kind of review. - 03/04/2012 03:37:39 PM 2518 Views
"Written by a female with femalist themes" - 03/04/2012 04:38:54 PM 1273 Views
Ok, I did and basically it's garbage. *NM* - 03/04/2012 04:53:00 PM 1109 Views
I grant that I haven't read the Hunger Games yet - 03/04/2012 05:10:38 PM 1223 Views
No, it's totally off. *NM* - 03/04/2012 05:39:03 PM 1085 Views
fair enough. like I said, I haven't read it yet. *NM* - 03/04/2012 07:20:34 PM 1021 Views
I can only speak for the film, which was not feminist. - 03/04/2012 06:01:18 PM 1188 Views
Where do I start? - 03/04/2012 07:43:18 PM 1193 Views
Hermoine was the most kick ass of the Potter kids. - 04/04/2012 03:08:17 AM 1047 Views
So? Hunger Games has lots of male characters. - 04/04/2012 05:30:21 AM 1101 Views
His racism point... - 04/04/2012 02:32:43 PM 1001 Views
Makes me almost wish I knew the source material so I could judge what he is saying - 03/04/2012 10:50:48 PM 1081 Views
Why don't you think the Hunger Games are feminist? - 03/04/2012 11:17:53 PM 1199 Views
Why would I consider it to be femenist? - 04/04/2012 01:51:24 AM 1097 Views
I just don't consider feminism as something that has to be radical. - 04/04/2012 05:42:59 AM 1175 Views
Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 08:22:35 AM 1171 Views
Re: Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 01:43:55 PM 1109 Views
Unfortunately truly ordinary female characters are so rare that the exceptions stand out - 04/04/2012 01:49:16 PM 1141 Views
Fair enough - 04/04/2012 02:33:22 PM 1196 Views
Stop using female as a noun! - 04/04/2012 03:51:13 PM 1078 Views
It's stuff like that that makes you lose cred - 04/04/2012 05:26:24 PM 1136 Views
It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 04/04/2012 07:30:18 PM 1083 Views
I don't think Jens was really using it that way, though - 04/04/2012 07:34:28 PM 1001 Views
Thank you! - 04/04/2012 08:03:38 PM 1116 Views
Of course he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it sounds. - 04/04/2012 08:06:03 PM 1098 Views
I understand that, but it's still such a ridiculous thing to get fussed over - 04/04/2012 09:20:01 PM 1144 Views
You are rather exaggerating just how "fussed" anyone did get, you do realize. - 04/04/2012 09:51:22 PM 1059 Views
Her tone was not just "informative". It was accusatory - 04/04/2012 10:17:57 PM 1028 Views
Female is perfectly acceptable to use in a medical/clinical setting. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:36:57 PM 1282 Views
so if your problem is people using it disparagingly... - 04/04/2012 10:45:10 PM 1007 Views
That's not what I said. - 04/04/2012 10:51:41 PM 1168 Views
I'm going to have to just outright disagree with you then. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:54:25 PM 1062 Views
If I wanted to be accusatory... - 04/04/2012 11:05:37 PM 1065 Views
Are you a native English speaker, Legolas? (Clarified to preempt possible internet tears) - 06/04/2012 09:29:28 AM 1117 Views
Nope. (edit) - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM 1093 Views
Re: Nope. (edit) - 07/04/2012 04:51:30 AM 1166 Views
"Female that"? That's even worse. - 07/04/2012 11:42:00 AM 1038 Views
Ok. - 07/04/2012 03:27:16 PM 1353 Views
Re: It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 05/04/2012 02:21:21 AM 1115 Views
I think the language difference is really interesting. - 05/04/2012 03:13:03 PM 1136 Views
English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM 1210 Views
LOL! You don't say... - 06/04/2012 05:06:20 PM 1071 Views
LOL u so mad - 06/04/2012 06:19:28 PM 1089 Views
The prospect of "losing cred" is not going to stop me from speaking my mind. - 04/04/2012 10:30:03 PM 1050 Views
My dear - 09/04/2012 01:07:34 PM 1125 Views
LOL - 09/04/2012 01:57:53 PM 933 Views
guess what, it is a noun. *NM* - 04/04/2012 07:26:39 PM 932 Views
That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 08:19:02 PM 1080 Views
well it's important that you say "female human" - 04/04/2012 09:28:45 PM 1035 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 10:48:07 PM 1036 Views
wait, so now you're claiming it's a grammatical thing? *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:58:31 PM 1093 Views
No, I have issues with words that begin with the letter f. - 04/04/2012 11:09:45 PM 1078 Views
ooookay then. - 04/04/2012 11:11:23 PM 1128 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 05/04/2012 02:08:26 AM 1122 Views
Re: Stop using female as a noun! - 05/04/2012 02:18:47 PM 982 Views
If dislike of the use of female as a noun makes me crazy town, I'm not the only crazy in here. - 05/04/2012 05:59:16 PM 1026 Views
For the record, I certainly don't think you're crazy town. - 05/04/2012 07:23:18 PM 1059 Views
Oh, so now we're using 'dislike' instead of 'should'. It's funny how you fell back on that. - 06/04/2012 10:01:59 AM 1106 Views
Fascinating. - 06/04/2012 09:54:47 PM 1076 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 07/04/2012 03:54:26 AM 1086 Views
Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM 1069 Views
What a joke. Do you even know what grammar is? - 07/04/2012 05:57:40 AM 1150 Views
Oh, come off it. This should be the point where you admit to being wrong. - 07/04/2012 12:11:07 PM 1019 Views
Sorry, no. Read better. - 07/04/2012 02:23:10 PM 1056 Views
*deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 06:38:08 PM 1024 Views
Re: *deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 09:26:34 PM 1191 Views
Aha, we found the problem - 09/04/2012 01:03:35 PM 1140 Views
You're being disingenuous. - 09/04/2012 12:57:38 PM 1053 Views
To be fair - 04/04/2012 02:37:25 PM 1074 Views
You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 01:46:16 PM 1102 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 02:23:33 PM 1044 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 07:51:46 PM 1064 Views
This - 05/04/2012 12:20:04 AM 1051 Views
Interesting. I really need to read these books soon, evidently. *NM* - 03/04/2012 10:52:43 PM 1046 Views
I got half way through the review and got bored. - 04/04/2012 03:09:58 AM 1047 Views
And it appears the writer of the article completely missed a central point of the story *spoilers* - 04/04/2012 05:44:40 AM 1096 Views
I think that might be debatable - 05/04/2012 06:59:35 PM 1084 Views
She still made plenty of choices and she did choose to kill. - 05/04/2012 07:13:47 PM 1017 Views
The reviewer is kind of full of it, but makes a good point about the character - 04/04/2012 04:22:30 PM 1136 Views
Out of curiosity (this off topic) - 04/04/2012 07:32:25 PM 1028 Views
Rachel, of course. - 05/04/2012 12:17:41 AM 1136 Views
Well. Now I've actually seen it. (mild spoilers) - 09/04/2012 12:17:03 AM 1114 Views