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English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words Dan Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM
'Female' is an incredibly common noun used in day to day American language, absolutely transparently. Never used with any sort of medical, scientific, or reductive connotation, ever. Vivien's critique is actually fairly radical in that it does fly in the face of ordinary language here. I've certainly never encountered this before, and my understanding of the nuances of American English is probably perfect. I'm not saying that to posture, but just to remind that connotation is a very delicate thing at this level. You wouldn't lecture Demosthenes on his use of καιγαρτοι, would you?


(I'm going to preemptively put a copy/paste edit in here from below to clarify)

I'll probably get some flack for this, but frankly, it should be emphasized more. I'm not being a bigot, I am saying the following. Despite the fact that Americans eat cheeseburgers and hate healthcare, American English is in fact a very complex and nuanced language that people ought to respect just a bit more, particularly with issues this subtle. It should be afforded the same respect as Japanese or Attic Greek. Being raised here does matter in some of these liminal cases. Being intelligent, watching movies, and reading books will not help someone on an issue that is this complex. You need to be a native speaker living here.




I am no native speaker. I just checked. The word can be used as noun.

Yes. But mostly for animals. If you go around talking about a movie in German and all the "Weibchen" in it, I dare say people will call you a male chauvinist pig as well. :P


:D I'm with you.

I'm fairly averse to using it as a noun except for animals in English too, though I know that's all to do with how you use and don't use femelle (anymore) in French.

It would be extremely derogatory to use the word a noun for a human woman, except in a medical contex or as a short cut for "genre féminin". Another acceptable use would be for humour (non offensive gender humour, for e.g....)

I guess it has a lot to do with culture. Femelle for French speakers reduces the gender to its reproductive function and was mostly used in other contexts by mysogynists or men wishing to dismiss or attack the gender. Since feminism, the word is barely ever used except for animals and a proper scientific term (totally non offensive when used this way). A few decades ago however, a priest could for example (and if you go back far enough, often would) refer to Eve as a "femelle" (while referring to Adam as a Man), but nowadays a priest doing that would really ruffle his flock.

Anyway, culturally I still find it really weird and odd to use female as a noun for women in English when the context isn't scientific, and when others use it sounds derogative and rude (even aggressive), whatever the real intent. Based on the argument, it sounds like with English speakers the word has gained the same derogative stigma for some women, but it's not as widely established culturally/linguistically as it is in French. In French even the adjective could be derogative out of the scientific context, and féminin is much preferred for all the others.

Typically, mâle has none of those connotations. Using it over homme (man) for a human male is often even flattering. French can be incredibly sexist in some of its usages.

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This message last edited by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:07:12 AM
  • Edit 2 by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:07:12 AM
  • Edit 1 by Dan on 06/04/2012 at 10:04:27 AM
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The Hunger Games gets a ... different kind of review. - 03/04/2012 03:37:39 PM 2132 Views
"Written by a female with femalist themes" - 03/04/2012 04:38:54 PM 930 Views
Ok, I did and basically it's garbage. *NM* - 03/04/2012 04:53:00 PM 744 Views
I grant that I haven't read the Hunger Games yet - 03/04/2012 05:10:38 PM 870 Views
No, it's totally off. *NM* - 03/04/2012 05:39:03 PM 734 Views
fair enough. like I said, I haven't read it yet. *NM* - 03/04/2012 07:20:34 PM 684 Views
I can only speak for the film, which was not feminist. - 03/04/2012 06:01:18 PM 843 Views
Where do I start? - 03/04/2012 07:43:18 PM 843 Views
Hermoine was the most kick ass of the Potter kids. - 04/04/2012 03:08:17 AM 713 Views
So? Hunger Games has lots of male characters. - 04/04/2012 05:30:21 AM 766 Views
His racism point... - 04/04/2012 02:32:43 PM 653 Views
Makes me almost wish I knew the source material so I could judge what he is saying - 03/04/2012 10:50:48 PM 754 Views
Why don't you think the Hunger Games are feminist? - 03/04/2012 11:17:53 PM 859 Views
Why would I consider it to be femenist? - 04/04/2012 01:51:24 AM 739 Views
Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 08:22:35 AM 800 Views
Re: Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 01:43:55 PM 764 Views
Unfortunately truly ordinary female characters are so rare that the exceptions stand out - 04/04/2012 01:49:16 PM 788 Views
Fair enough - 04/04/2012 02:33:22 PM 834 Views
Stop using female as a noun! - 04/04/2012 03:51:13 PM 756 Views
It's stuff like that that makes you lose cred - 04/04/2012 05:26:24 PM 757 Views
It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 04/04/2012 07:30:18 PM 748 Views
I don't think Jens was really using it that way, though - 04/04/2012 07:34:28 PM 685 Views
Thank you! - 04/04/2012 08:03:38 PM 784 Views
Of course he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it sounds. - 04/04/2012 08:06:03 PM 762 Views
I understand that, but it's still such a ridiculous thing to get fussed over - 04/04/2012 09:20:01 PM 809 Views
You are rather exaggerating just how "fussed" anyone did get, you do realize. - 04/04/2012 09:51:22 PM 722 Views
Her tone was not just "informative". It was accusatory - 04/04/2012 10:17:57 PM 699 Views
Female is perfectly acceptable to use in a medical/clinical setting. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:36:57 PM 931 Views
so if your problem is people using it disparagingly... - 04/04/2012 10:45:10 PM 668 Views
That's not what I said. - 04/04/2012 10:51:41 PM 780 Views
I'm going to have to just outright disagree with you then. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:54:25 PM 713 Views
If I wanted to be accusatory... - 04/04/2012 11:05:37 PM 732 Views
Are you a native English speaker, Legolas? (Clarified to preempt possible internet tears) - 06/04/2012 09:29:28 AM 744 Views
Nope. (edit) - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM 747 Views
Re: Nope. (edit) - 07/04/2012 04:51:30 AM 812 Views
"Female that"? That's even worse. - 07/04/2012 11:42:00 AM 703 Views
Ok. - 07/04/2012 03:27:16 PM 980 Views
Re: It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 05/04/2012 02:21:21 AM 763 Views
I think the language difference is really interesting. - 05/04/2012 03:13:03 PM 755 Views
English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM 822 Views
LOL! You don't say... - 06/04/2012 05:06:20 PM 733 Views
LOL u so mad - 06/04/2012 06:19:28 PM 733 Views
The prospect of "losing cred" is not going to stop me from speaking my mind. - 04/04/2012 10:30:03 PM 707 Views
My dear - 09/04/2012 01:07:34 PM 745 Views
LOL - 09/04/2012 01:57:53 PM 610 Views
guess what, it is a noun. *NM* - 04/04/2012 07:26:39 PM 596 Views
That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 08:19:02 PM 710 Views
well it's important that you say "female human" - 04/04/2012 09:28:45 PM 722 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 10:48:07 PM 710 Views
wait, so now you're claiming it's a grammatical thing? *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:58:31 PM 719 Views
No, I have issues with words that begin with the letter f. - 04/04/2012 11:09:45 PM 745 Views
ooookay then. - 04/04/2012 11:11:23 PM 802 Views
Re: Stop using female as a noun! - 05/04/2012 02:18:47 PM 668 Views
If dislike of the use of female as a noun makes me crazy town, I'm not the only crazy in here. - 05/04/2012 05:59:16 PM 696 Views
For the record, I certainly don't think you're crazy town. - 05/04/2012 07:23:18 PM 718 Views
Oh, so now we're using 'dislike' instead of 'should'. It's funny how you fell back on that. - 06/04/2012 10:01:59 AM 726 Views
Fascinating. - 06/04/2012 09:54:47 PM 760 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 07/04/2012 03:54:26 AM 725 Views
Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM 737 Views
What a joke. Do you even know what grammar is? - 07/04/2012 05:57:40 AM 773 Views
Oh, come off it. This should be the point where you admit to being wrong. - 07/04/2012 12:11:07 PM 676 Views
Sorry, no. Read better. - 07/04/2012 02:23:10 PM 710 Views
*deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 06:38:08 PM 705 Views
Re: *deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 09:26:34 PM 793 Views
Aha, we found the problem - 09/04/2012 01:03:35 PM 774 Views
You're being disingenuous. - 09/04/2012 12:57:38 PM 701 Views
To be fair - 04/04/2012 02:37:25 PM 754 Views
You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 01:46:16 PM 772 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 02:23:33 PM 726 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 07:51:46 PM 745 Views
This - 05/04/2012 12:20:04 AM 722 Views
I got half way through the review and got bored. - 04/04/2012 03:09:58 AM 700 Views
And it appears the writer of the article completely missed a central point of the story *spoilers* - 04/04/2012 05:44:40 AM 751 Views
I think that might be debatable - 05/04/2012 06:59:35 PM 740 Views
She still made plenty of choices and she did choose to kill. - 05/04/2012 07:13:47 PM 690 Views
The reviewer is kind of full of it, but makes a good point about the character - 04/04/2012 04:22:30 PM 782 Views
Out of curiosity (this off topic) - 04/04/2012 07:32:25 PM 684 Views
Rachel, of course. - 05/04/2012 12:17:41 AM 732 Views
Well. Now I've actually seen it. (mild spoilers) - 09/04/2012 12:17:03 AM 795 Views