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Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. Vivien Send a noteboard - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM
Contrary to the impression you may have received based on this thread, I do not actually enjoy repeating myself. Based on the content of your post, I see us going in circles and getting nowhere. And guess what, I don't feel like engaging with you. You don't deserve it.

Anyway, you asked for references/citations and I can't say no to that. Internet links ahoy!

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/female_3

http://www.writersrelief.com/blog/2010/01/female-troubles-female-vs-woman/

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/woman-versus-female.aspx

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/female-or-woman/

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/20/the_female_question/?page=2

http://persephonemagazine.com/2011/10/female-is-an-adjective-you-got-your-grammar-in-my-feminism/

http://ucommunications.colorado.edu/services/style-guide/word-list

http://www.shakesville.com/2010/03/on-being-woman-not-female.html

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/mcintyre/blog/2007/10/female_trouble.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/02/10/is-female-an-offensive-term/

http://www.wordmonster.org/2012/01/17/female-noun/

http://peevepile.com/peeves/2179






What few others? I was simply referring to your previous post that said: " I'm not the only crazy in here" and "There are a couple men that spoke up in agreement and the responses to them have been respectful and polite."

When did I ever say I was getting any flack at all, or being brave? I did not say these things. If you're referring to the little copy/paste tangent filled with, in Doma's words, "platitudes", that was just a preemptive attempt to clarify my position and not offend unduly, and to prevent needless flaming.

The main thrust of my criticism is that you seemed to changed the nature of your argument against the substantive use of female from a normative argument that is either grammatically correct or politically incorrect (I'm still not sure which, both, I guess?) to one that is based on your own feelings and reactions to the word. Those are two different justifications to make.

It's both an issue of correct grammar and the dislike of female as a noun- it's very unpleasant to read or hear the use of female as a noun.

I'm amused by your constant references to grammar. Give me a citation, please, anywhere. I do not believe you and believe you are wrong, and a citation should be easy to come by. Or do you simply *feel* like it's the wrong grammar?

So it's either one of three things, or some, or all:

1) Grammatically incorrect
2) Politically incorrect
3) Personally distasteful

I addressed (1) above, and (3) I am discounting because one should not attempt to correct someone's vocabulary because they personally associate the words with certain meanings. That leaves (2), which can be stated:

The word "female" is politically incorrect because it has a connotation among English speakers that emphasizes reproductive biology, and when used as a substantive it subtly devalues and reduces women to their reproductive biological roles.

The issue I have is that in America, "female" simply does not have that connotation among English speakers. I grant that perhaps a hundred years ago it may have had a distinctly clinical sense to it- I actually don't know the history of the word. But presently it is completely interchangeable on a day-to-day level with "woman". It's become "anthropized" (made the word up, not a linguist) basically, to come to mean "female human".

Want some examples? The term "feminism" came to be associated with a Political and Ethical movement. The constituents then were understood as "females". It was one step in the anthropization of the term female. Most other animals do not have Politics or Ethics at all. Here the same word (or the root, or what have you) has been associated with a distinctly human endevour.

It's also reflected in ordinary language with the adjective "feminine". Were I to compliment a woman on being very "feminine", or someone were to remark on a male being (supposedly) uncharacteristically "feminine", most Americans today would understand the adjective to be referencing human traits, gender traits, that they associated with being a human female. Primarily cultural. For the average American, it would probably be something like wearing dresses, putting on makeup, speaking with a high, affected voice. Note that I'm not endorsing or believe this- just describing how "feminine" is deployed now, and they definitely reference human/gender feminine traits. They would not associate "feminine" with biological feminine traits.

So I'm claiming that "female" does not have the connotation among American English speakers that you claim, so the grounds for objecting to it as a subtle semantic shift simply don't exist. I was honestly surprised to here of the association, as were all of the other native English speakers here. Two people supported you, but based on shaky analogies from their own languages.


It's fascinating how some people discount others' feelings so automatically and sharply. It's not just that you're not willing to take them into consideration, but you have to go on a crusade to try to prove that my perspective and feelings are invalid. In regular life, if someone has different perspectives and feelings do you need to prove that they are wrong and only your outlook is correct?

This is an incredibly telling statement. Do you really think I'm out to discount your feelings, or your perspective? It's not about your feelings. I'm responding to a normative argument you made above at to Jens which I took to be on shaky ground, and which you in turn have been reiterating constantly. I'm responding somewhat virulently not because I am evil and repressive, but because your initial response and your sweeping claims were pretty condescending, and that your claims about the use of "female" were effectively incorrect.

You asked previously why you and not your male supporters were being singled out and rebuked. Look above. You were not singled out. Different focuses above, but if anything longer rebukes. I responded twice to you because you 1) began the debate 2) were condescending and 3) made by far the most posts on the subject, justifying it in different ways. I'd venture to say the level of venom is about equal among all the responses, and you'll note that when D0ma responded rather rudely, I stepped it up accordingly.

Arguments of this sort actually can be rationally analyzed and examined. Aren't you an engineer? I should think you'd appreciate that.







Reply to message
The Hunger Games gets a ... different kind of review. - 03/04/2012 03:37:39 PM 2124 Views
"Written by a female with femalist themes" - 03/04/2012 04:38:54 PM 923 Views
Ok, I did and basically it's garbage. *NM* - 03/04/2012 04:53:00 PM 741 Views
I grant that I haven't read the Hunger Games yet - 03/04/2012 05:10:38 PM 865 Views
No, it's totally off. *NM* - 03/04/2012 05:39:03 PM 730 Views
fair enough. like I said, I haven't read it yet. *NM* - 03/04/2012 07:20:34 PM 679 Views
I can only speak for the film, which was not feminist. - 03/04/2012 06:01:18 PM 839 Views
Where do I start? - 03/04/2012 07:43:18 PM 838 Views
Hermoine was the most kick ass of the Potter kids. - 04/04/2012 03:08:17 AM 708 Views
So? Hunger Games has lots of male characters. - 04/04/2012 05:30:21 AM 762 Views
His racism point... - 04/04/2012 02:32:43 PM 649 Views
Makes me almost wish I knew the source material so I could judge what he is saying - 03/04/2012 10:50:48 PM 750 Views
Why don't you think the Hunger Games are feminist? - 03/04/2012 11:17:53 PM 853 Views
Why would I consider it to be femenist? - 04/04/2012 01:51:24 AM 735 Views
Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 08:22:35 AM 796 Views
Re: Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 01:43:55 PM 760 Views
Unfortunately truly ordinary female characters are so rare that the exceptions stand out - 04/04/2012 01:49:16 PM 783 Views
Fair enough - 04/04/2012 02:33:22 PM 828 Views
Stop using female as a noun! - 04/04/2012 03:51:13 PM 751 Views
It's stuff like that that makes you lose cred - 04/04/2012 05:26:24 PM 753 Views
It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 04/04/2012 07:30:18 PM 745 Views
I don't think Jens was really using it that way, though - 04/04/2012 07:34:28 PM 681 Views
Thank you! - 04/04/2012 08:03:38 PM 780 Views
Of course he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it sounds. - 04/04/2012 08:06:03 PM 758 Views
I understand that, but it's still such a ridiculous thing to get fussed over - 04/04/2012 09:20:01 PM 804 Views
You are rather exaggerating just how "fussed" anyone did get, you do realize. - 04/04/2012 09:51:22 PM 717 Views
Her tone was not just "informative". It was accusatory - 04/04/2012 10:17:57 PM 694 Views
Female is perfectly acceptable to use in a medical/clinical setting. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:36:57 PM 927 Views
so if your problem is people using it disparagingly... - 04/04/2012 10:45:10 PM 662 Views
That's not what I said. - 04/04/2012 10:51:41 PM 775 Views
I'm going to have to just outright disagree with you then. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:54:25 PM 707 Views
If I wanted to be accusatory... - 04/04/2012 11:05:37 PM 727 Views
Are you a native English speaker, Legolas? (Clarified to preempt possible internet tears) - 06/04/2012 09:29:28 AM 736 Views
Nope. (edit) - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM 742 Views
Re: Nope. (edit) - 07/04/2012 04:51:30 AM 807 Views
"Female that"? That's even worse. - 07/04/2012 11:42:00 AM 697 Views
Ok. - 07/04/2012 03:27:16 PM 975 Views
Re: It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 05/04/2012 02:21:21 AM 759 Views
I think the language difference is really interesting. - 05/04/2012 03:13:03 PM 751 Views
English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM 818 Views
LOL! You don't say... - 06/04/2012 05:06:20 PM 730 Views
LOL u so mad - 06/04/2012 06:19:28 PM 729 Views
The prospect of "losing cred" is not going to stop me from speaking my mind. - 04/04/2012 10:30:03 PM 701 Views
My dear - 09/04/2012 01:07:34 PM 737 Views
LOL - 09/04/2012 01:57:53 PM 606 Views
guess what, it is a noun. *NM* - 04/04/2012 07:26:39 PM 590 Views
That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 08:19:02 PM 705 Views
well it's important that you say "female human" - 04/04/2012 09:28:45 PM 717 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 10:48:07 PM 705 Views
wait, so now you're claiming it's a grammatical thing? *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:58:31 PM 714 Views
No, I have issues with words that begin with the letter f. - 04/04/2012 11:09:45 PM 741 Views
ooookay then. - 04/04/2012 11:11:23 PM 798 Views
Re: Stop using female as a noun! - 05/04/2012 02:18:47 PM 662 Views
If dislike of the use of female as a noun makes me crazy town, I'm not the only crazy in here. - 05/04/2012 05:59:16 PM 691 Views
For the record, I certainly don't think you're crazy town. - 05/04/2012 07:23:18 PM 714 Views
Oh, so now we're using 'dislike' instead of 'should'. It's funny how you fell back on that. - 06/04/2012 10:01:59 AM 715 Views
Fascinating. - 06/04/2012 09:54:47 PM 756 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 07/04/2012 03:54:26 AM 720 Views
Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM 734 Views
What a joke. Do you even know what grammar is? - 07/04/2012 05:57:40 AM 766 Views
Oh, come off it. This should be the point where you admit to being wrong. - 07/04/2012 12:11:07 PM 673 Views
Sorry, no. Read better. - 07/04/2012 02:23:10 PM 706 Views
*deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 06:38:08 PM 700 Views
Re: *deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 09:26:34 PM 786 Views
Aha, we found the problem - 09/04/2012 01:03:35 PM 768 Views
You're being disingenuous. - 09/04/2012 12:57:38 PM 696 Views
To be fair - 04/04/2012 02:37:25 PM 749 Views
You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 01:46:16 PM 768 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 02:23:33 PM 722 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 07:51:46 PM 741 Views
This - 05/04/2012 12:20:04 AM 714 Views
I got half way through the review and got bored. - 04/04/2012 03:09:58 AM 695 Views
And it appears the writer of the article completely missed a central point of the story *spoilers* - 04/04/2012 05:44:40 AM 747 Views
I think that might be debatable - 05/04/2012 06:59:35 PM 736 Views
She still made plenty of choices and she did choose to kill. - 05/04/2012 07:13:47 PM 686 Views
The reviewer is kind of full of it, but makes a good point about the character - 04/04/2012 04:22:30 PM 778 Views
Out of curiosity (this off topic) - 04/04/2012 07:32:25 PM 680 Views
Rachel, of course. - 05/04/2012 12:17:41 AM 727 Views
Well. Now I've actually seen it. (mild spoilers) - 09/04/2012 12:17:03 AM 791 Views