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Nope. (edit) Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM
I'm not asking if you speak very well well, or have a functionally perfect grasp of the language, or if you have spent your whole life speaking and listening to English. Because you speak with some pretty pretentious authority about what a word's connotations are.

That would be a more sensible argument to make if it was only non-native speakers who attested to this connotation, don't you think? Not the case here.
(I'm going to preemptively put a copy/paste edit in here from below to clarify)

No need, it's a valid enough point to make when a non-native speaker starts arguing a point with native speakers about the language involved. But Vivien and Aeryn are native speakers, and they feel the same way. It's possible (and judging from a quick Google, even certain) that I underestimated how many people use "a female" without negative connotations, but it's also obvious that the connotation does exist for many people, and that the use of the term can indeed give offense.
I'll probably get some flack for this, but frankly, it should be emphasized more. I'm not being a bigot, I am saying the following. Despite the fact that Americans eat cheeseburgers and hate healthcare, American English is in fact a very complex and nuanced language that people ought to respect just a bit more, particularly with issues this subtle. It should be afforded the same respect as Japanese or Attic Greek. Being raised here does matter in some of these liminal cases. Being intelligent, watching movies, and reading books will not help someone on an issue that is this complex. You need to be a native speaker living here.

I don't disagree with that, certainly not. I've spent some time in the US, but not nearly enough to claim I understand everything about American culture or language (though I have to say I'm not sure why you're narrowing this down to American English alone). But again, the fact that it was an American native speaker who raised the point to begin with makes this rather irrelevant, I think, except to the extent mentioned above, that I perhaps overestimated how generally established the negative connotation was.

I had noted the connotation before (and no, not from my own language like Dom, as my own language doesn't have a cognate of "female" ), and had assumed it to be generally valid, so when Vivien pointed it out, and got Jens and Celia suggesting that she was nitpicking, I supported her. The Google search does prove me wrong in a way, but the point that Jens would be better off not using that word in that context remains, I think.



Edit: I did another Google search and the result is interesting. My first search had been "females are" - and nearly all of the hits on the first few pages for that one are simply about women, without any obvious negative connotation, so that rather disproves my stance.

However, if you search for the singular, "the female is", then you do indeed get the result I was expecting to get on the first search - i.e., predominantly articles talking about animals, plus a few medical articles, and almost no articles where it's used as a normal equivalent for "woman". So, you who are a real American and all - does that stroke with your impression of things, that when "female" is used as a neutral noun, it's generally in plural?
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This message last edited by Legolas on 06/04/2012 at 07:47:50 PM
  • Edit 1 by Legolas on 06/04/2012 at 07:47:50 PM
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The Hunger Games gets a ... different kind of review. - 03/04/2012 03:37:39 PM 2132 Views
"Written by a female with femalist themes" - 03/04/2012 04:38:54 PM 930 Views
Ok, I did and basically it's garbage. *NM* - 03/04/2012 04:53:00 PM 744 Views
I grant that I haven't read the Hunger Games yet - 03/04/2012 05:10:38 PM 870 Views
No, it's totally off. *NM* - 03/04/2012 05:39:03 PM 734 Views
fair enough. like I said, I haven't read it yet. *NM* - 03/04/2012 07:20:34 PM 684 Views
I can only speak for the film, which was not feminist. - 03/04/2012 06:01:18 PM 843 Views
Where do I start? - 03/04/2012 07:43:18 PM 843 Views
Hermoine was the most kick ass of the Potter kids. - 04/04/2012 03:08:17 AM 713 Views
So? Hunger Games has lots of male characters. - 04/04/2012 05:30:21 AM 766 Views
His racism point... - 04/04/2012 02:32:43 PM 653 Views
Makes me almost wish I knew the source material so I could judge what he is saying - 03/04/2012 10:50:48 PM 754 Views
Why don't you think the Hunger Games are feminist? - 03/04/2012 11:17:53 PM 859 Views
Why would I consider it to be femenist? - 04/04/2012 01:51:24 AM 739 Views
Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 08:22:35 AM 800 Views
Re: Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 01:43:55 PM 764 Views
Unfortunately truly ordinary female characters are so rare that the exceptions stand out - 04/04/2012 01:49:16 PM 788 Views
Fair enough - 04/04/2012 02:33:22 PM 834 Views
Stop using female as a noun! - 04/04/2012 03:51:13 PM 756 Views
It's stuff like that that makes you lose cred - 04/04/2012 05:26:24 PM 757 Views
It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 04/04/2012 07:30:18 PM 748 Views
I don't think Jens was really using it that way, though - 04/04/2012 07:34:28 PM 685 Views
Thank you! - 04/04/2012 08:03:38 PM 784 Views
Of course he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it sounds. - 04/04/2012 08:06:03 PM 762 Views
I understand that, but it's still such a ridiculous thing to get fussed over - 04/04/2012 09:20:01 PM 809 Views
You are rather exaggerating just how "fussed" anyone did get, you do realize. - 04/04/2012 09:51:22 PM 722 Views
Her tone was not just "informative". It was accusatory - 04/04/2012 10:17:57 PM 699 Views
Female is perfectly acceptable to use in a medical/clinical setting. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:36:57 PM 931 Views
so if your problem is people using it disparagingly... - 04/04/2012 10:45:10 PM 668 Views
That's not what I said. - 04/04/2012 10:51:41 PM 780 Views
I'm going to have to just outright disagree with you then. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:54:25 PM 713 Views
If I wanted to be accusatory... - 04/04/2012 11:05:37 PM 732 Views
Are you a native English speaker, Legolas? (Clarified to preempt possible internet tears) - 06/04/2012 09:29:28 AM 744 Views
Nope. (edit) - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM 747 Views
Re: Nope. (edit) - 07/04/2012 04:51:30 AM 812 Views
"Female that"? That's even worse. - 07/04/2012 11:42:00 AM 703 Views
Ok. - 07/04/2012 03:27:16 PM 980 Views
Re: It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 05/04/2012 02:21:21 AM 763 Views
I think the language difference is really interesting. - 05/04/2012 03:13:03 PM 755 Views
English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM 821 Views
LOL! You don't say... - 06/04/2012 05:06:20 PM 733 Views
LOL u so mad - 06/04/2012 06:19:28 PM 733 Views
The prospect of "losing cred" is not going to stop me from speaking my mind. - 04/04/2012 10:30:03 PM 707 Views
My dear - 09/04/2012 01:07:34 PM 745 Views
LOL - 09/04/2012 01:57:53 PM 610 Views
guess what, it is a noun. *NM* - 04/04/2012 07:26:39 PM 596 Views
That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 08:19:02 PM 710 Views
well it's important that you say "female human" - 04/04/2012 09:28:45 PM 722 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 10:48:07 PM 710 Views
wait, so now you're claiming it's a grammatical thing? *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:58:31 PM 719 Views
No, I have issues with words that begin with the letter f. - 04/04/2012 11:09:45 PM 745 Views
ooookay then. - 04/04/2012 11:11:23 PM 802 Views
Re: Stop using female as a noun! - 05/04/2012 02:18:47 PM 668 Views
If dislike of the use of female as a noun makes me crazy town, I'm not the only crazy in here. - 05/04/2012 05:59:16 PM 696 Views
For the record, I certainly don't think you're crazy town. - 05/04/2012 07:23:18 PM 718 Views
Oh, so now we're using 'dislike' instead of 'should'. It's funny how you fell back on that. - 06/04/2012 10:01:59 AM 726 Views
Fascinating. - 06/04/2012 09:54:47 PM 760 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 07/04/2012 03:54:26 AM 725 Views
Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM 737 Views
What a joke. Do you even know what grammar is? - 07/04/2012 05:57:40 AM 773 Views
Oh, come off it. This should be the point where you admit to being wrong. - 07/04/2012 12:11:07 PM 676 Views
Sorry, no. Read better. - 07/04/2012 02:23:10 PM 710 Views
*deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 06:38:08 PM 705 Views
Re: *deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 09:26:34 PM 793 Views
Aha, we found the problem - 09/04/2012 01:03:35 PM 774 Views
You're being disingenuous. - 09/04/2012 12:57:38 PM 701 Views
To be fair - 04/04/2012 02:37:25 PM 754 Views
You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 01:46:16 PM 772 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 02:23:33 PM 726 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 07:51:46 PM 745 Views
This - 05/04/2012 12:20:04 AM 722 Views
I got half way through the review and got bored. - 04/04/2012 03:09:58 AM 700 Views
And it appears the writer of the article completely missed a central point of the story *spoilers* - 04/04/2012 05:44:40 AM 751 Views
I think that might be debatable - 05/04/2012 06:59:35 PM 740 Views
She still made plenty of choices and she did choose to kill. - 05/04/2012 07:13:47 PM 690 Views
The reviewer is kind of full of it, but makes a good point about the character - 04/04/2012 04:22:30 PM 782 Views
Out of curiosity (this off topic) - 04/04/2012 07:32:25 PM 684 Views
Rachel, of course. - 05/04/2012 12:17:41 AM 732 Views
Well. Now I've actually seen it. (mild spoilers) - 09/04/2012 12:17:03 AM 795 Views