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Nope. (edit) Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM
I'm not asking if you speak very well well, or have a functionally perfect grasp of the language, or if you have spent your whole life speaking and listening to English. Because you speak with some pretty pretentious authority about what a word's connotations are.

That would be a more sensible argument to make if it was only non-native speakers who attested to this connotation, don't you think? Not the case here.
(I'm going to preemptively put a copy/paste edit in here from below to clarify)

No need, it's a valid enough point to make when a non-native speaker starts arguing a point with native speakers about the language involved. But Vivien and Aeryn are native speakers, and they feel the same way. It's possible (and judging from a quick Google, even certain) that I underestimated how many people use "a female" without negative connotations, but it's also obvious that the connotation does exist for many people, and that the use of the term can indeed give offense.
I'll probably get some flack for this, but frankly, it should be emphasized more. I'm not being a bigot, I am saying the following. Despite the fact that Americans eat cheeseburgers and hate healthcare, American English is in fact a very complex and nuanced language that people ought to respect just a bit more, particularly with issues this subtle. It should be afforded the same respect as Japanese or Attic Greek. Being raised here does matter in some of these liminal cases. Being intelligent, watching movies, and reading books will not help someone on an issue that is this complex. You need to be a native speaker living here.

I don't disagree with that, certainly not. I've spent some time in the US, but not nearly enough to claim I understand everything about American culture or language (though I have to say I'm not sure why you're narrowing this down to American English alone). But again, the fact that it was an American native speaker who raised the point to begin with makes this rather irrelevant, I think, except to the extent mentioned above, that I perhaps overestimated how generally established the negative connotation was.

I had noted the connotation before (and no, not from my own language like Dom, as my own language doesn't have a cognate of "female" ), and had assumed it to be generally valid, so when Vivien pointed it out, and got Jens and Celia suggesting that she was nitpicking, I supported her. The Google search does prove me wrong in a way, but the point that Jens would be better off not using that word in that context remains, I think.



Edit: I did another Google search and the result is interesting. My first search had been "females are" - and nearly all of the hits on the first few pages for that one are simply about women, without any obvious negative connotation, so that rather disproves my stance.

However, if you search for the singular, "the female is", then you do indeed get the result I was expecting to get on the first search - i.e., predominantly articles talking about animals, plus a few medical articles, and almost no articles where it's used as a normal equivalent for "woman". So, you who are a real American and all - does that stroke with your impression of things, that when "female" is used as a neutral noun, it's generally in plural?
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This message last edited by Legolas on 06/04/2012 at 07:47:50 PM
  • Edit 1 by Legolas on 06/04/2012 at 07:47:50 PM
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The Hunger Games gets a ... different kind of review. - 03/04/2012 03:37:39 PM 2330 Views
"Written by a female with femalist themes" - 03/04/2012 04:38:54 PM 1107 Views
Ok, I did and basically it's garbage. *NM* - 03/04/2012 04:53:00 PM 920 Views
I grant that I haven't read the Hunger Games yet - 03/04/2012 05:10:38 PM 1047 Views
No, it's totally off. *NM* - 03/04/2012 05:39:03 PM 926 Views
fair enough. like I said, I haven't read it yet. *NM* - 03/04/2012 07:20:34 PM 856 Views
I can only speak for the film, which was not feminist. - 03/04/2012 06:01:18 PM 1021 Views
Where do I start? - 03/04/2012 07:43:18 PM 1023 Views
Hermoine was the most kick ass of the Potter kids. - 04/04/2012 03:08:17 AM 888 Views
So? Hunger Games has lots of male characters. - 04/04/2012 05:30:21 AM 949 Views
His racism point... - 04/04/2012 02:32:43 PM 833 Views
Makes me almost wish I knew the source material so I could judge what he is saying - 03/04/2012 10:50:48 PM 930 Views
Why don't you think the Hunger Games are feminist? - 03/04/2012 11:17:53 PM 1034 Views
Why would I consider it to be femenist? - 04/04/2012 01:51:24 AM 923 Views
Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 08:22:35 AM 972 Views
Re: Completely agree with your first paragraph - 04/04/2012 01:43:55 PM 938 Views
Unfortunately truly ordinary female characters are so rare that the exceptions stand out - 04/04/2012 01:49:16 PM 977 Views
Fair enough - 04/04/2012 02:33:22 PM 1017 Views
Stop using female as a noun! - 04/04/2012 03:51:13 PM 923 Views
It's stuff like that that makes you lose cred - 04/04/2012 05:26:24 PM 938 Views
It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 04/04/2012 07:30:18 PM 924 Views
I don't think Jens was really using it that way, though - 04/04/2012 07:34:28 PM 862 Views
Thank you! - 04/04/2012 08:03:38 PM 960 Views
Of course he didn't intend it that way, but that's how it sounds. - 04/04/2012 08:06:03 PM 942 Views
I understand that, but it's still such a ridiculous thing to get fussed over - 04/04/2012 09:20:01 PM 982 Views
You are rather exaggerating just how "fussed" anyone did get, you do realize. - 04/04/2012 09:51:22 PM 893 Views
Her tone was not just "informative". It was accusatory - 04/04/2012 10:17:57 PM 869 Views
Female is perfectly acceptable to use in a medical/clinical setting. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:36:57 PM 1109 Views
so if your problem is people using it disparagingly... - 04/04/2012 10:45:10 PM 840 Views
That's not what I said. - 04/04/2012 10:51:41 PM 952 Views
I'm going to have to just outright disagree with you then. *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:54:25 PM 891 Views
If I wanted to be accusatory... - 04/04/2012 11:05:37 PM 901 Views
Are you a native English speaker, Legolas? (Clarified to preempt possible internet tears) - 06/04/2012 09:29:28 AM 939 Views
Nope. (edit) - 06/04/2012 07:23:54 PM 919 Views
Re: Nope. (edit) - 07/04/2012 04:51:30 AM 986 Views
"Female that"? That's even worse. - 07/04/2012 11:42:00 AM 876 Views
Ok. - 07/04/2012 03:27:16 PM 1164 Views
Re: It's fairly derogatory as a noun, though, have to agree with Vivien on that one. - 05/04/2012 02:21:21 AM 932 Views
I think the language difference is really interesting. - 05/04/2012 03:13:03 PM 934 Views
English is not French, and it's not German. Particularly the connotations of American English words - 06/04/2012 09:39:00 AM 1010 Views
LOL! You don't say... - 06/04/2012 05:06:20 PM 901 Views
LOL u so mad - 06/04/2012 06:19:28 PM 892 Views
The prospect of "losing cred" is not going to stop me from speaking my mind. - 04/04/2012 10:30:03 PM 892 Views
My dear - 09/04/2012 01:07:34 PM 955 Views
LOL - 09/04/2012 01:57:53 PM 782 Views
guess what, it is a noun. *NM* - 04/04/2012 07:26:39 PM 767 Views
That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 08:19:02 PM 893 Views
well it's important that you say "female human" - 04/04/2012 09:28:45 PM 891 Views
Re: That's the first time I have ever heard/seen anyone say that. - 04/04/2012 10:48:07 PM 879 Views
wait, so now you're claiming it's a grammatical thing? *NM* - 04/04/2012 10:58:31 PM 891 Views
No, I have issues with words that begin with the letter f. - 04/04/2012 11:09:45 PM 921 Views
ooookay then. - 04/04/2012 11:11:23 PM 978 Views
Re: Stop using female as a noun! - 05/04/2012 02:18:47 PM 833 Views
If dislike of the use of female as a noun makes me crazy town, I'm not the only crazy in here. - 05/04/2012 05:59:16 PM 871 Views
For the record, I certainly don't think you're crazy town. - 05/04/2012 07:23:18 PM 887 Views
Oh, so now we're using 'dislike' instead of 'should'. It's funny how you fell back on that. - 06/04/2012 10:01:59 AM 908 Views
Fascinating. - 06/04/2012 09:54:47 PM 929 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 07/04/2012 03:54:26 AM 911 Views
Just in case (however slim that chance may be) you are genuinely interested in citations/references. - 07/04/2012 05:34:37 AM 906 Views
What a joke. Do you even know what grammar is? - 07/04/2012 05:57:40 AM 970 Views
Oh, come off it. This should be the point where you admit to being wrong. - 07/04/2012 12:11:07 PM 847 Views
Sorry, no. Read better. - 07/04/2012 02:23:10 PM 881 Views
*deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 06:38:08 PM 860 Views
Re: *deletes long reply* Let's focus on the essence here. - 07/04/2012 09:26:34 PM 989 Views
Aha, we found the problem - 09/04/2012 01:03:35 PM 969 Views
You're being disingenuous. - 09/04/2012 12:57:38 PM 889 Views
To be fair - 04/04/2012 02:37:25 PM 926 Views
You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 01:46:16 PM 954 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 02:23:33 PM 898 Views
Re: You didn't see thmovie? She is far from passive - 04/04/2012 07:51:46 PM 906 Views
This - 05/04/2012 12:20:04 AM 890 Views
I got half way through the review and got bored. - 04/04/2012 03:09:58 AM 872 Views
And it appears the writer of the article completely missed a central point of the story *spoilers* - 04/04/2012 05:44:40 AM 933 Views
I think that might be debatable - 05/04/2012 06:59:35 PM 910 Views
She still made plenty of choices and she did choose to kill. - 05/04/2012 07:13:47 PM 860 Views
The reviewer is kind of full of it, but makes a good point about the character - 04/04/2012 04:22:30 PM 957 Views
Out of curiosity (this off topic) - 04/04/2012 07:32:25 PM 862 Views
Rachel, of course. - 05/04/2012 12:17:41 AM 928 Views
Well. Now I've actually seen it. (mild spoilers) - 09/04/2012 12:17:03 AM 971 Views