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Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer DomA Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
But I certainly think he fits the clues from the books and what RJ said best.

It was reported that RJ said Asmo is "roadkill". In slang that simply means - and I cite the free dictionary, but there are similar definitions elsewhere, too - : "One that has failed or been defeated and is no longer worthy of consideration." It's certainly not meant in its literal meaning, namely that Asmo is "an animal killed by being struck by a motor vehicle", since that wouldn't make much sense. Meriam Webster even defines roadkill as "one that falls victim to intense competition <political roadkill>", which would support the idea of a fellow Forsaken sending a killer to assassinate the rival Asmo.


Perhaps you're not just familar with the various ways Americans and Canadians use this expression.

The first definition you give doesn't apply to the context. RJ could have used it this way if, for example, he was explaining to someone how Asmodean ended up with Rand, ie: "the guy is a road kill. He thought he could play with the big fish and got squashed between Lanfear and Rand".

It's the murder he called a "road kill", not Asmodean.

That's not what the expression would mean when you describe a murder as a "road kill".

He's no "political road kill" either. That's for people in politics and in this case the expression means to compare the weakness of the animal in comparison to the truck/car coming at it... You get ruined, because you're much too weak for your opponents, or because your were a nuisance in their way.

All these expressions are derived from metaphor derived from the literal meaning behind it: a little animal that's in the wrong place at the wrong time and get killed by a coming car that didn't see it or can't stop, before the animal manages to jump away.

In the context RJ used it to describe a murder, not its motive,(incl. the fact he also called it "a murder of opportunity";), "road kill" implies the killer wasn't in the room waiting for Asmodean. Asmodean opened the wrong door at the wrong time and surprised someone who would kill him given the chance. He was in the way of that person. It's someone who killed Asmodean first and above all because he couldn't let him live. Most likely, it's someone Asmodean would have killed, capture or otherwise put in big trouble if that person didn't kill him first. It either that has to do with who that person is, or what he/she was doing there, or both combined.

The other way to interpret it doesn't apply, as it contradicts the fact it's a murder of opportunity, and the other quote about opportunity being more important than motive. It would be to say RJ meant Asmodean was in the way of bigger fish who took him out for this reason. It would explain the motive. That would point to whoever wanted Taim near Rand. But as I said, this can't be because it contradicts other quotes, so RJ meant almost literally a "road kill": Asmodean got at the wrong place at the wrong time.

RJ also said that "timing is what you should focus on" and it's reported "he emphasized OPPORTUNITY as the key to knowing Asmodean's killer, even over motive (which got a mention)".


Of course, but here's a more down to earth way to interpret this:

a) The timing is important. There's not much to puzzle out about the pacing of the Asmodean scene (except to conclude it has to be a murder of opportunity, which RJ has confirmed). What we know about the timing is that the murder happened a few hours after Rahvin's death and a few more after Lanfear's disappearance in Cairhien. It also happens hours after Moghedien disappeared. Who would have a reason to be in the palace that very day, at that time? Graendal, Sammael, Demandred. Perhaps Mesaana and Semirhage as well. More than one of these people may have come to Caemlyn (Demandred did, apparently - visited spies of his anyway), just one of them killed Asmodean. Graendal has the best clues attached to her as far as curiosity or "need to know" goes, because we know Asmodean knew her hiding place, she was involved with Rahvin and the plan to bring Rand's attention of Sammael,she's learned about Lanfear at the docks, and Rahvin's death, and she's convinced Asmodean died that day as well, and Moghedien, who miss the meeting she had scheduled with Graendal that same day. Sammael has the least, because he claims not to know about these things. The motive of the others to come to Caemlyn is weaker, because unlike Graendal and Sammael they were not involved. For them, it would be desire to know more than need to know.

b) Opportunity over motive.

You don't seem to understand what this really means, because it undermines your theory. Slayer coming to the palace to kill Asmodean on someone's orders isn't "opportunity over motive". The motive would be the only drive behind his presence in Caemlyn, the opportunity he merely created by tracking down Asmodean's comings and goings. Your theory is the very opposite of the meaning of "opportunity over motive". It's the description of a manhunt, an assassination. Opportunity over motive means the killer wasn't there to kill Asmodean, and wouldn't have gone out of his way to ambush or killed Asmodean if the opportunity to kill him didn't fall right in the killer's lap, that place, that day. It means if Slayer did it, he wasn't in the palace to kill Asmodean but for another purpose or mission, and he did kill Asmodean only because the opportunity suddenly presented itself. The problem is that RJ also confirmed that the Dark One never gave the order to anyone to kill Asmodean on sight, so Slayer would not have taken it upon himself to kill Asmodean, and we don't even actually know if Isam ever learned that Asmodean had betrayed the Shadow. The defection of a Chosen, that even such a thing is possible, is hardly the sort of thing the Shadow would tell to the underlings - even the fact Cyndane and Moghedien are being punished is kept secret from the other Chosen themselves... Most likely Isam doesn't know, only the other Chosen do, and perhaps not even all of them. Lanfear came up with that story (which she invented. She's in truth the traitor) and told Sammael, Graendal and Rahvin. Sammael and Rahvin would definitely not tell this to Demandred, which means not to Mesaana and Semirhage either. Graendal? Maybe, maybe not. There's not much incentive to share the news, given that taking out Asmodean could be rewarded by Shai'tan. Lanfear has zero motive to spread the news beyond her trio... the last thing she wanted was Demandred and company to come kill the teacher she's worked hard to provide to Rand. She told the three solely because she wanted them to agree to work together - and she made clear she had this under control and kept a close eye on Rand, and could get near him. Of course, Demandred learned straight from Shai'tan that Asmodean had betrayed (and he told Semirhage and Mesaana), but that's after the murder. But there is no evidence at all that Moghedien learned about Asmodean and his betrayal, or that Aran'gar and Osan'gar were told. There's not even evidence Moridin knows. They most likely all know about it (and Moridin may even have forced the true story out of Cyndane), but there's no evidence.


The rest of your theory as it stands right now is full of holes:

a) The text gives no clue that Asmodean could have been spied on or followed. It actually read as if this possibility is most, most unlikely

b) You misinterpret "road kill", "murder of opportunity" and other aspects of the RJ quotes.

c) You would be hard pressed to show us a clue that Slayer is the killer in the next two books, when RJ said there were clues in there.

d) You are one of the only person who believes any of the Chosen, wholly arrogant, would be humble enough to think Slayer would be a good choice to hunt and kill one of them. They would probably all laugh at the very notion. Most people who believe Slayer did it don't know RJ said the DO didn't order anyone to kill Asmodean (he would most likely have mindtrapped him if he could have..)

e) You create a whole ellipse in which Slayer brings Asmodean to TAR to die, when the text doesn't even open a door for anything like this to have taken place. As it reads, Asmodean died where he stood, and his death scream hung in the air.
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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2620 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1364 Views
Surely, there can never be enough Asmo threads! *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 736 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer... - 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM 1167 Views
It's not really obvious... - 28/05/2010 09:08:27 AM 1105 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments - 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM 1019 Views
Far-fetched, IMO - 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM 1459 Views
very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 761 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM 1152 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so! - 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM 1247 Views
Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1117 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1159 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1195 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1250 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 1100 Views
There is no evidence of this at all - 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM 1083 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys - 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM 1055 Views
so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 1078 Views
I disagree. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:50:02 PM 1191 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say.... - 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM 1147 Views
I think this is your interpretation - 28/05/2010 02:50:14 PM 1091 Views
Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1180 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 974 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 971 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 941 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1296 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1150 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious - 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM 1231 Views
Ok, as we said in the other thread, let's RAFO! *NM* - 27/05/2010 05:57:49 PM 1241 Views
Agreed *NM* - 27/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 687 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 1083 Views
Well... - 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM 1161 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1148 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 1084 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex! - 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM 1136 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 1086 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 1090 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1107 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1251 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1170 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1161 Views
The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM 1082 Views
Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1167 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1224 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1285 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 1068 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1171 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 1044 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM 1117 Views
Couple of questions - 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM 1144 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO! - 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM 994 Views
Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM 1118 Views
Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 1009 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 1032 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that. - 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM 1089 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly - 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM 1181 Views
We've seen it done. - 28/05/2010 06:32:08 PM 1034 Views
Not the same thing - 28/05/2010 07:00:13 PM 1010 Views
Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1177 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1123 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 575 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1137 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 1120 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1142 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 1040 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 1116 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1113 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1170 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 1030 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 1101 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 1077 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 1101 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 875 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 1036 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 1005 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 845 Views
Too much? - 28/05/2010 05:16:44 PM 1098 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1221 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 694 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 929 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1130 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1331 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 838 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1263 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 1053 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 1063 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 1026 Views
Doesn't make sense - 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM 1067 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 1001 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 694 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1111 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM 1014 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 1085 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that - 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM 1056 Views
Well, I don't think so. - 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM 1075 Views
yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1146 Views
Again... - 29/05/2010 03:09:06 PM 1142 Views
Taking things NO - 29/05/2010 03:12:24 PM 1115 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 951 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 953 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 1008 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 960 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 1006 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 965 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 684 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 895 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 900 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 1037 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1153 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 1078 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 1004 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 1106 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1123 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 1035 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 989 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 1037 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 1022 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 1082 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1131 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 1053 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 982 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 682 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 914 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 540 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 733 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 1080 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 1078 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 1039 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 1029 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 705 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1139 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 999 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 1027 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 1072 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 1019 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 1108 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 1064 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 1045 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 1094 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1169 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 1049 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 1014 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 1093 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1141 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 1100 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 1108 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1179 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 931 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 1019 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 982 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1135 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 1068 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 1057 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 983 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 1029 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 1107 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1488 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 1042 Views

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