RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
Because when we have to go through stuff like this, it's Lost-level speculation. I liked that show a good bit, and even posted my opinions on certain episodes or a few theories, but I didn't really try to suss out how the relatively unimportant stuff worked out.
I posted a thread presenting the famous "Bob's Theory," and presented my own notes on the potential culprits... Yet who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble).
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because the answer has never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
I posted a thread presenting the famous "Bob's Theory," and presented my own notes on the potential culprits... Yet who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble).
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because the answer has never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 29/05/2010 at 04:44:20 PM
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2804 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1494 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1294 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1174 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
743 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
706 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1300 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1602 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1307 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1404 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1257 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1283 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1340 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1389 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1270 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1208 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1194 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1290 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1441 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1290 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1380 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1235 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1300 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1295 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1214 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1280 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1235 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1411 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1294 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1294 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1213 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1361 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1443 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1217 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1331 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1331 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1281 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1296 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1133 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1259 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1162 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1228 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1323 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
644 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1278 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1260 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1268 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1185 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1242 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1269 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1296 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1174 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1240 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1259 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1211 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1246 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
1015 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1162 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1156 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1187 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1156 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1348 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
766 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
1052 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1256 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1482 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
971 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1393 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1165 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1203 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1114 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
713 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
770 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
770 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1237 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1203 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
717 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1264 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
813 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1189 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1222 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1194 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1215 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
1077 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1076 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1076 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1140 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
1112 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1126 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
1086 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
749 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
1031 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1209 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1129 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1129 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1151 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1220 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1292 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1204 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1139 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
746 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
1051 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
616 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
616 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
803 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1205 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1189 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1151 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1157 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1157 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
775 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
775 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1198 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1198 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1143 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1143 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1254 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1202 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1349 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1349 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1233 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1291 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1173 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1157 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1224 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1268 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1268 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1232 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1232 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1301 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1313 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
1055 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1147 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1114 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1259 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1186 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1200 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1123 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1123 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1155 Views
