RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
Because when we have to go through stuff like this, it's Lost-level speculation. I liked that show a good bit, and even posted my opinions on certain episodes or a few theories, but I didn't really try to suss out how the relatively unimportant stuff worked out.
I posted a thread presenting the famous "Bob's Theory," and presented my own notes on the potential culprits... Yet who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble).
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because the answer has never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
I posted a thread presenting the famous "Bob's Theory," and presented my own notes on the potential culprits... Yet who killed Asmo isn't a particularly important issue, as it almost certainly won't go anywhere (e.g., involves a person who is presently sitting in Caemlyn's palace and causing trouble).
I'd never expect to type the words in this following clause: RJ did an uncontrovertibly bad writing job once [see below], and the result has been a mystery that's engendered obsessive levels of contemplation. This shouldn't be interpreted as me saying that Etzel (who deserves credit for this) or anyone else *is* obsessive; just that the attention needed, especially considered in total, is obsessive.
Nor do I think I am superior in this regard. Although I haven't really tried a grand-Asmo theory, I have frequently pondered the killer's identity, and I've read many of the ideas posted on this topic. So it's eaten up a bit of my time too, and I now see the folly in the time wasted.
I say that RJ failed, not lightly, because our deeply-missed Author never intended to create a mystery. The fact that he felt it only required a little thought - yet it doesn't and has created a giant uncertainty in the minds of so many(!) - is all the proof that's needed to use the word "fail" comfortably (if unwillingly). Even typos slip through the cracks on a major literary work (and valuable intellectual property), everybody makes mistakes, and it's the readers who have to suffer for it. And, of course, the Author and associated staff, since they have to be pestered with a zillion questions about it.
A writer communicates ideas; communicating them well mixes with how clear or opaque a writer wishes to be in a particular instance. RJ intended this to be fairly transparent, and instead it's a great big nebulous brick wall. It sounds like a syllogism that may not be accurate at all, but still: when all facts are considered, this question is still like a black hole where you can barely definitively know *anything* about it. So I guess RJ messed up, because the answer has never seemed irreducibly certain. I congratulate the person who got it right; yet even s/he had to actually ask RJ to confirm their idea. So it wasn't even certain then. I sincerely hope I'm not suffering from selfishness or jealousy masquerading as reason.
For me, at least, there's two big realizations that I got from reading an intelligent second-by-second analysis of what happened to Asmo:
(a) the manner of death must've been really special for no-one to notice even a quick burst of nearby OP ("TP'd to Death" would read silly/stupid/funny), so Fain is a still a great candidate since perhaps being stabbed by his knife (or his Powers) can prevent a soul from being retrieved
and
(b) thinking about this requires too much brain power that I should put elsewhere, and I now feel badly about any extra reading I may have done on this topic.
I deeply hope that RJ and Sanderson give us an answer on the first or second page of ToM - even better if it's in the Prologue, so everyone gets the answer when the advance prologue is available on Amazon or B&N or Borders online. That way we can put aside all the hyper-observation around this topic and just enjoy the whole book a month later with this issue off our collective minds (those of us who spent serious time on this). It's getting to the point where I could almost envy the casual readers, and envy isn't a natural emotion for me.
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 29/05/2010 at 04:44:20 PM
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2733 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1441 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
1241 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
1106 Views
I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
703 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
681 Views
Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1248 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1552 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1235 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
1351 Views
Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
1195 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
1223 Views
The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
1281 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
1332 Views
As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
1197 Views
There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
1151 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
1134 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
1228 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
1380 Views
We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
1231 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
1317 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
1170 Views
Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
1241 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
1237 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
1163 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
1219 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
1181 Views
Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
1349 Views
No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
1240 Views
let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
1233 Views
The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
1153 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
1302 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
1376 Views
RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
1162 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1263 Views
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
1263 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
1213 Views
Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
1231 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
1070 Views
Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
1199 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
1096 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
1175 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
1263 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
610 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
1215 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
1199 Views
But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
1215 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
1115 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
1185 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
1209 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
1240 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
1122 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
1185 Views
Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
1190 Views
???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
1154 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
1185 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
954 Views
Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
1105 Views
Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
1088 Views
But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
1122 Views
Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
1103 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
1293 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
736 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
999 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
1197 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
1430 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
913 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
1339 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
1109 Views
Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
1137 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
1065 Views
Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
690 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
743 Views
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
743 Views
There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
1188 Views
He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
1142 Views
No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
692 Views
RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1205 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
787 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1128 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
1155 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
1133 Views
Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
1161 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
1012 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1018 Views
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
1018 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1079 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
1045 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
1069 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
1031 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
727 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
976 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
1149 Views
That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
1070 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
1069 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
1087 Views
That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
1167 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
1240 Views
Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
1147 Views
Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
1079 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
723 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
982 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
588 Views
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
588 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
779 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
1150 Views
Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
1138 Views
Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
1099 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1098 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
1098 Views
I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
752 Views
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
752 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1145 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
1145 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1088 Views
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1088 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
1201 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
1151 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1197 Views
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
1197 Views
No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
1176 Views
That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
1241 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
1121 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
1103 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
1166 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1211 Views
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
1211 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1178 Views
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1178 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
1246 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
1256 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
1005 Views
um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
1092 Views
It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1060 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1205 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
1129 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1132 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1060 Views
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
1060 Views
We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
1107 Views
