my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
Thus, she fails the intuitively obvious-test
WHAT intuitively obvious test?
Jordan admitted years that was a joke, that he served at that Q&A the smart ass answer one of his physics teachers used to give his students when they didn't get a difficult problem. He admitted he was pulling our leg, and that he was enjoying it!!!
He even has contradicted the "intuitively obvious" joke elsewhere by saying there were some clues but no red flag. A red flag is slang for an obvious clue.... he said there were none!
The fact it's a joke aside, Graendal as a suspect is still perfectly obvious in TFOH. As the culprit (more than by a lucky guess) and in what circumstances no, but as a suspect certainly. It was even intuitively obvious to come up with the very simple theory that one of Forsaken allied with Rahvin was also in the palace, or came to the palace in the aftermath. I know for a fact it's an obvious reasoning to make because I bloody did it the first time I read that scene! So don't come and tell me Slayer is obvious and Graendal isn't! That's a totally ridiculous statement. NO ONE I've seen on any WOT website or newsgroup I've visited has brought up the theory that Slayer killed the BA in Tear or the Grey Men in the WT before WH revealed it! No one! So don't come and tell it's obvious Slayer did it because he killed before in the series.... It wasn't even obvious there was an executioner for the Shadow in the series, that Shadowspawn or a Forsaken didn't perform these deeds!
The closest someone may come to having Slayer as a suspect by intuition (not a pure guess, as your theory) is "hmmm.. maybe the person who eliminated the BA traitors in TDR also came to kill Asmodean". And that'd be a wrong reasonning because when you think this through by closer examinatiom of the text the circumstances of the death clearly indicated it wasn't an execution but a murder of opportunity, whereas in Tear it was an execution. So there's no obvious connection to make between the two events....
OTOH, it's perfectly simple to come up with possible reasons for Graendal and Sammael to have been in the palace and Asmodean stumbling on them by accident (ta'veren twist): they came to meet Rahvin and were very surprised to find the palace in an uproar and al'Thor apparently there - and remained around to find out what happened; they came for spies, they came to try to learn Rand's next move, they came to find out what happened because agents reported Rahvin's death, they came to check if Lanfear was now with Rand and had betrayed them all, they came to see if Rand was weakened enough by the duel they could take him out Etc., Etc. Some of these reasons don't stand the test of the next books and some do, but back in TFOH they were perfectly valid guesses that could come quite close to solving what happened. With LOC and ACOS, you can narrow it down some more, eliminate Demandred as another suspect, and Sammael, then Semirhage. And in those books and TPOD are the clues that the main remaining suspect, Graendal, seems to know something about Asmodean the others don't, and never something shows up that contradicted the notion she may have killed Asmodean. She had the means, she would have motives, and it's perfectly possible to reason out why she may have had the opportunity.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
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I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
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I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
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In addition to Etzel's comments
28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
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Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
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Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
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Far-fetched, IMO
27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
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I don't want Slayer to be the killer
27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
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The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
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Bah, hogwash!
27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
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Re: Bah, hogwash!
27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
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The point is...
28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
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Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
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As is Slayer
28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
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There is no evidence of this at all
28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
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Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
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You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
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None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
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We often see...
27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
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I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
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Indeed
28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
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Well...
28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
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Re: Well...
28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
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I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
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your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
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It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
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Re: Well...
28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
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No...
28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
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let's try this another way
28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
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The main problem with Graendal is...
28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
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Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
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my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
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RJ used the expression...
29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
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be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
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Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
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Couple of questions
27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
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Be'lal managed to get out NO!
27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
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Hmmm
27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
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I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
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Hmmm I wonder about that.
27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
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I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
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Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
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No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
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Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
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But look...
28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
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if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
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The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
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Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
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RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
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Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
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Yeah, I know. *NM*
28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
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Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
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???
28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
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Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
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Here is what RJ said EDIT
28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
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Indeed
28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
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Re: Indeed
28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
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But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
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Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
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Re: Far-fetched, IMO
02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
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Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
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Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
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Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
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Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
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The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
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Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
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Lanfear killed Asmo.....
28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
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Doesn't make sense
28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
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Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
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Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
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Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
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There is a quote that refutes this...
28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
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He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
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No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
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RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
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Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
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I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
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If Slayer is actually the killer...
29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
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Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
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Well, I don't think so.
29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
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RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
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If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
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But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
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Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
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Not "before" the murder. *NM*
06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
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Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
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He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
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not if it didn't happen in the books
07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
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I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
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That's what I've always thought as well.
29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
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You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
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except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
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That is simply false.
02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
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RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
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Of course, it is false
02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
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Here are the quotes
02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
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As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
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I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
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Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
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that makes no sense at all *NM*
02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
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RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
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Well...
06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
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Logic
06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
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You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
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I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
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That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
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just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
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Yeah...
07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
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thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
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Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
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No they show that she is deliberate!
07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
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That are just semantics
07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
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and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
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As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
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Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
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And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
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Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
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You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
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That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
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That is essentially what Moghedien said.
07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
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um no it's not
07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
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It's told after that...
07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
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No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
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Yeah...
07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
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Funny I feel the same way you do ...
07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
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Ah, whatever...
07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
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We are on the exact same page
07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
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