I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
Since RJ said that one should read closely, I want to analyse Asmo's last moments in TFoH in detail:
"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. “You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him."
After Asmo went for a short while (maybe at least one minute, considering all his thoughts and that he was without any hurry) leaving Mat & Aviendha at the fountain in the garden, he comes to a wall in front of him with a long balefire gash and finally, after maybe at least another minute, reaches a closed small door, which leads to an unknown location. He pulls the door open, which takes him probably at least one second. When he opens the door, he doesn't immediately see his killer, though. He still thinks about wine. Then Asmo takes one step into the room/corridor behind the door. This probably also takes at least one second. Then Asmo suddenly stops, because he surprisingly sees not too far away a person he didn't expect there, recognizes this person & becomes immediately scared. To realize all this probably also takes at least one second for Asmo. Either the person was hidden behind the door, so that Asmo couldn't already see the person, when he opened the door, or the person suddenly appeared before him in this moment (like e.g. Slayer does). Then Asmo addresses the killer with the question "you?", which probably takes at least another second. Then the killer uses a quick weapon (either a prepared OP weave, an aimed crossbow or knife) to kill Asmo in likely one second, so that Asmo can only say "no!", when he sees the weapon hitting him, because only the word "no!" still hung in the air, when death took him. There are no other witnesses around and Asmo's body was either destroyed by a OP weave or the killer brought it away. Another detail is that Asmo apparently had his harp in his hands oder under his arm, which might have made it a bit more difficult for him to react quickly to counter an attack (e.g. if he needs his hands to perform a OP weave).
Since Asmo spent some minutes with Mat and Aviendha before he left them, it's possible that the killer spied on Asmo for some time (like Rand watches Asmo playing the harp at the fountain from his window in the first floor), and figured where he would probably go. Thus, the killer might have been able to enter the room/corridor before Asmo at the moment, when Asmo makes his step into the room (especially if the killer knows the Caemlyn palace very well like e.g. Luc probably does).
I would definitely say that the killer was better prepared to quickly fight/kill someone than Asmo was, since Asmo was without any hurry, had idle thoughts before, was then suddenly surprised, scared and had his harp in the hands to hinder him a bit.
This is my basic interpretation of the scene and its timing. Agreements or disagreements?
"He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. “You? No!” The word still hung in the air when death took him."
After Asmo went for a short while (maybe at least one minute, considering all his thoughts and that he was without any hurry) leaving Mat & Aviendha at the fountain in the garden, he comes to a wall in front of him with a long balefire gash and finally, after maybe at least another minute, reaches a closed small door, which leads to an unknown location. He pulls the door open, which takes him probably at least one second. When he opens the door, he doesn't immediately see his killer, though. He still thinks about wine. Then Asmo takes one step into the room/corridor behind the door. This probably also takes at least one second. Then Asmo suddenly stops, because he surprisingly sees not too far away a person he didn't expect there, recognizes this person & becomes immediately scared. To realize all this probably also takes at least one second for Asmo. Either the person was hidden behind the door, so that Asmo couldn't already see the person, when he opened the door, or the person suddenly appeared before him in this moment (like e.g. Slayer does). Then Asmo addresses the killer with the question "you?", which probably takes at least another second. Then the killer uses a quick weapon (either a prepared OP weave, an aimed crossbow or knife) to kill Asmo in likely one second, so that Asmo can only say "no!", when he sees the weapon hitting him, because only the word "no!" still hung in the air, when death took him. There are no other witnesses around and Asmo's body was either destroyed by a OP weave or the killer brought it away. Another detail is that Asmo apparently had his harp in his hands oder under his arm, which might have made it a bit more difficult for him to react quickly to counter an attack (e.g. if he needs his hands to perform a OP weave).
Since Asmo spent some minutes with Mat and Aviendha before he left them, it's possible that the killer spied on Asmo for some time (like Rand watches Asmo playing the harp at the fountain from his window in the first floor), and figured where he would probably go. Thus, the killer might have been able to enter the room/corridor before Asmo at the moment, when Asmo makes his step into the room (especially if the killer knows the Caemlyn palace very well like e.g. Luc probably does).
I would definitely say that the killer was better prepared to quickly fight/kill someone than Asmo was, since Asmo was without any hurry, had idle thoughts before, was then suddenly surprised, scared and had his harp in the hands to hinder him a bit.
This is my basic interpretation of the scene and its timing. Agreements or disagreements?
Me: Did Slayer take Asmodean to Tel'aran'rhiod before, or after he killed him?
He and some other people started laughing, he thought a little and answered with a smile:
RJ: What makes you think Asmodean is dead?
I laughed and he continued:
RJ: Yeah, you screw with my head, I screw with yours...(that's actually what he said.)
So incidentally I made Jordan laugh and swear, but not answer the question. But hey, I didn't get a RAFO.
You'll note that this question "screwed with RJs head" ... obviously Slayer taking Asmodean into TAR is something RJ never considered for that to be the case. Otherwise we all know this fan would have gotten a RAFO rather than a puzzled answer.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds
- 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM
2771 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery....
- 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM
1460 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer...
- 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM
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In addition to Etzel's comments
- 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM
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I'm pretty sure the Myrdraal that killed Caradin's family was a Proto-version of SH *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:56:58 PM
710 Views
Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin *NM*
- 29/05/2010 04:40:15 PM
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Re: Smacking & ordering Carridin, yes - but no evidence it killed his kin
- 29/05/2010 09:16:01 PM
1267 Views
Far-fetched, IMO
- 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM
1573 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM
1264 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so!
- 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM
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Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM
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Re: Bah, hogwash!
- 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM
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The point is...
- 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM
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Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler
- 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM
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As is Slayer
- 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM
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There is no evidence of this at all
- 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM
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Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys
- 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM
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You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say....
- 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM
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None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't
- 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM
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We often see...
- 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM
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I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious
- 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM
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Indeed
- 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM
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Well...
- 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM
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Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM
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I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above
- 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM
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your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex!
- 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM
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It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense
- 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM
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Re: Well...
- 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM
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No...
- 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM
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let's try this another way
- 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM
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The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM
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Re: The main problem with Graendal is...
- 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
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my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal.
- 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM
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RJ used the expression...
- 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM
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be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself
- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
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- 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM
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Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer
- 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM
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Couple of questions
- 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM
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Be'lal managed to get out NO!
- 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM
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Hmmm
- 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM
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I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves
- 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM
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Hmmm I wonder about that.
- 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM
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I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly
- 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM
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Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM*
- 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM
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No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM
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Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too
- 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM
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But look...
- 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM
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if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved
- 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM
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The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM
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Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course
- 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM
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RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM
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Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM
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Yeah, I know. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM
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Yet Slayer is no where to be seen between his vanishing after TSR and the start of WH
- 28/05/2010 03:09:44 PM
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???
- 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM
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Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM*
- 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM
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Here is what RJ said EDIT
- 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM
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Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM
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Re: Indeed
- 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM
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But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 05:33:02 PM
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Re: But he was already introduced to us before the murder, and that is all that matters. *NM*
- 28/05/2010 07:05:27 PM
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Re: Far-fetched, IMO
- 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM
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Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM*
- 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM
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Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot?
- 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM
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Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM
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Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken
- 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM
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The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM
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Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book
- 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM
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Lanfear killed Asmo.....
- 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM
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Doesn't make sense
- 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM
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Sorry, Lanfear did it.....
- 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM
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Considering that RJ didn't even necessarily want to reveal it, it was pretty random, yeah. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:25:54 AM
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Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more
*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
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*NM*
- 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM
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There is a quote that refutes this...
- 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM
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He could have recognized Moridan.....due to the True Power in his eyes.
- 29/05/2010 03:49:49 AM
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No other Forsaken immediately recognizes Moridin as Ishy because of the saa. *NM*
- 29/05/2010 08:26:44 AM
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RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever
- 28/05/2010 08:55:01 PM
1232 Views
Re: RJ failed, Etzel's analysis is sharp, and I'm gonna abandon the Asmo question forever *NM*
- 28/05/2010 09:24:41 PM
796 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory
- 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM
1157 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer...
- 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM
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Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that
- 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM
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Well, I don't think so.
- 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM
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RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM
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If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him
- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
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- 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM
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But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM
1103 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books"
- 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM
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Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM
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Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM*
- 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM
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He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM*
- 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM
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not if it didn't happen in the books
- 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM
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I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he.
- 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM
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That's what I've always thought as well.
- 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM
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You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised".....
- 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM
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except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity
- 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM
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That is simply false.
- 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM
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RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only"
- 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM
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Of course, it is false
- 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
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Here are the quotes
- 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM
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As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM
730 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to
- 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM
1007 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out.
*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
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*NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM
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that makes no sense at all *NM*
- 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM
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RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer.
- 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM
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Well...
- 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM
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Logic
- 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM
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You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
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You're falling into Etzelian logic there...
- 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM
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I'm just being a smartass
*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
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*NM*
- 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM
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That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense.
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
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*NM*
- 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM
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just like thinking Slayer was the killer is
- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
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- 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM
1112 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM
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thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over
- 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM
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Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful...
*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
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*NM*
- 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM
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No they show that she is deliberate!
- 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM
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That are just semantics
- 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM
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and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH?
- 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM
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As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes...
- 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM
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Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point?
- 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM
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And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
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- 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM
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Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin?
- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
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- 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM
1198 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it...
- 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM
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That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled
- 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM
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That is essentially what Moghedien said.
- 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM
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um no it's not
- 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM
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It's told after that...
- 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM
1081 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place
- 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM
1231 Views
Yeah...
- 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM
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Funny I feel the same way you do ...
- 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM
1166 Views
Ah, whatever...
- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
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- 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM
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We are on the exact same page
- 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM
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