Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
Linda wrote a really good entry for this on her page.
RJ's 21 level scale was primarily used to keep track of the Aes Sedai pecking order. This wasn't actually meant to accurately depict Nynaeve's real strength compared to Lanfear. Outliers are not present in any way besides placeholding on that 21 level list - because it doesn't really mean anything concrete. It was made by RJ to primarily keep track of deference, not absolute strength.
Thus, because the 21 level list was primarily used for weaker character, it makes sense that RJ imposed this list on the overall bell curve distribution in theory, because the 21 level list was just a way of getting at a subset of the population and it was all relative, anyway, so you could take members of the population present in that list, and place them in the overall bell curve. Being at the topmost level on the 21 level list, in other words, did not mean that some random character out there was much stronger than you. It merely meant that you had not met that stronger person, thus they were not present in the list.
It's apples and oranges. The bell curve is supposed to represent all possible reflections of strength, while the 21 level list was used as a means of keeping track who was stronger than who among the introduced characters. I have a ruler. I can use it to measure things between 0.1 inch and a foot. I cannot use it to measure anything above a foot, because that was not the purpose of its' design. The purpose of the 21 level list was made to keep track of a social hierarchy, not an absolute value measurable in the real world.
So, yes, strength falls along a bell curve. No, the 21 level list doesn't represent that bell curve. You can impose the 21 level list on the curve to get an idea over where particular members stood in the grand scheme of things, but the 21 level list does not conform in a 1 to 1 relationship absolute values of strength.
And I don't think strength means much anyway. You have multiple examples of "weaker" channelers with Talents that can outstrip certain things a stronger channeler can do, and stronger channelers that can't match the skills of weaker ones. Sex itself can determine how good you are at certain feats, so there are things that a Talent might make you truly exceptional at among the population as a whole (blocking gateways seems to be one of them).
RJ's 21 level scale was primarily used to keep track of the Aes Sedai pecking order. This wasn't actually meant to accurately depict Nynaeve's real strength compared to Lanfear. Outliers are not present in any way besides placeholding on that 21 level list - because it doesn't really mean anything concrete. It was made by RJ to primarily keep track of deference, not absolute strength.
The scale is not a firm indicator of the outcomes of duels. Jordan used the list mainly for ranking the average to weaker channellers: "I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth."
- Robert Jordan on his blog
- Robert Jordan on his blog
Thus, because the 21 level list was primarily used for weaker character, it makes sense that RJ imposed this list on the overall bell curve distribution in theory, because the 21 level list was just a way of getting at a subset of the population and it was all relative, anyway, so you could take members of the population present in that list, and place them in the overall bell curve. Being at the topmost level on the 21 level list, in other words, did not mean that some random character out there was much stronger than you. It merely meant that you had not met that stronger person, thus they were not present in the list.
It's apples and oranges. The bell curve is supposed to represent all possible reflections of strength, while the 21 level list was used as a means of keeping track who was stronger than who among the introduced characters. I have a ruler. I can use it to measure things between 0.1 inch and a foot. I cannot use it to measure anything above a foot, because that was not the purpose of its' design. The purpose of the 21 level list was made to keep track of a social hierarchy, not an absolute value measurable in the real world.
So, yes, strength falls along a bell curve. No, the 21 level list doesn't represent that bell curve. You can impose the 21 level list on the curve to get an idea over where particular members stood in the grand scheme of things, but the 21 level list does not conform in a 1 to 1 relationship absolute values of strength.
And I don't think strength means much anyway. You have multiple examples of "weaker" channelers with Talents that can outstrip certain things a stronger channeler can do, and stronger channelers that can't match the skills of weaker ones. Sex itself can determine how good you are at certain feats, so there are things that a Talent might make you truly exceptional at among the population as a whole (blocking gateways seems to be one of them).
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 11/06/2010 at 12:52:27 AM
Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount
- 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM
2378 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking!
- 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM
1312 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength...
- 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM
1154 Views
See the question again man!
- 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM
1124 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman...
- 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM
1211 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing!
- 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
1142 Views
- 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
1142 Views
Think logically for a moment...
- 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM
976 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine?
- 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM
1268 Views
Aviendha did in FoH...
- 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM
971 Views
Nope!
- 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM
1148 Views
Your quotes are faulty
- 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM
1133 Views
In what sense though?
- 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM
1131 Views
Forkroot
- 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM
1085 Views
Again... later that night?
- 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM
953 Views
What do you mean?
- 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM
1118 Views
See below...
- 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM
1002 Views
Re: See below...
- 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM
1065 Views
I just did.
- 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM
917 Views
Well then we disagree
- 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM
1120 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT!
- 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM
939 Views
Ah, you mean later later ...
- 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM
1044 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know?
- 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM
1144 Views
Yes I know
- 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM
1148 Views
I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM
1113 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM
1112 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM
1050 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM
1095 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine?
- 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM
1149 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe?
- 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM
959 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ!
- 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM
1049 Views
In that case, there is no problem...
- 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM
1186 Views
But that isn't what the text says...
- 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM
911 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then?
- 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM
1154 Views
Yeah, both were RJ
- 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM
1027 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate.
- 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM
1114 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
1120 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
1120 Views
Really?
- 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM
976 Views
Re: Really?
- 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM
1099 Views
Here's what is clear:
- 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM
1018 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove
- 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
998 Views
Dude...
- 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM
913 Views
At least we agree on one thing
- 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM
1027 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3
- 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM
850 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point
- 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM
952 Views
The rate forkroot wears off?
- 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM
1065 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all!
- 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM
967 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this...
- 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM
868 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did.
- 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM
984 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off...
- 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM
969 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield...
- 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM
966 Views
Easy...
- 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM
933 Views
What has that got to do with it?
- 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM
1119 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half..
- 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM
1036 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who...
- 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM
1157 Views
I can agree with that.
- 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM
927 Views
...
- 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM
924 Views
Agreed, but...
- 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM
1073 Views
Re: Agreed, but...
- 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM
873 Views
Good point...
- 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM
1093 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list...
- 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM
946 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense
- 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM
892 Views
Uhhh?
- 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM
899 Views
Re: Uhhh?
- 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM
905 Views
DUDE!
- 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM
924 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily...
- 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM
1575 Views
That's fairly simple, actually...
- 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM
1144 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai...
- 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM
1108 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM*
- 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM
531 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right...
- 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM
1183 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages...
- 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM
939 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them...
- 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM
956 Views
Very poor evidence
- 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM
1083 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined
- 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM
1020 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined...
- 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM
1065 Views
Here's the problem with that...
- 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM
927 Views
I think you are misreading her.
- 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM
905 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM*
- 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM
569 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution.
- 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM
1122 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals.
- 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM
970 Views
I don't agree
- 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM
954 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you.
- 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM
1148 Views
Hmm...
- 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM
876 Views
Because of the question to which she responded...
- 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM
890 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded...
- 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM
1042 Views
Without contradicting the latter...
- 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM
928 Views
Ah well
- 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM
928 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified!
- 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM
1154 Views
Nope...
- 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM
1010 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50?
- 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
1039 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55?
- 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM
902 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys!
- 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM
854 Views
Amys can't hold her properly
- 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM
888 Views
What about later that night?
- 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM
902 Views
No she didn't
- 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM
1019 Views
No she didn't what?
- 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM
1065 Views
Re: No she didn't what?
- 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM
917 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale?
- 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM
1017 Views
That's simple...
- 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM
989 Views
Re: That's simple...
- 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM
939 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it.
- 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM
1125 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body.
- 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM
971 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new
- 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
1088 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before
- 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM
1171 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing
- 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM
919 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing...
- 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM
1201 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second...
- 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM
936 Views
That still proves my point...
- 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM
1104 Views
Re: That still proves my point...
- 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM
970 Views
Then why...
- 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM
1061 Views
Re: Then why...
- 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM
934 Views
God, what stupidity!
- 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM
915 Views
Re: God, what stupidity!
- 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM
1021 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100.
- 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM
961 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100.
- 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM
1251 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility...
- 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM
1093 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
- 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
1012 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM
990 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM
1103 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM
1061 Views
I agree
- 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM
1160 Views
Re: I agree
- 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM
943 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out"
- 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM
975 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM*
- 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM
548 Views
Actually she said "No"...
*NM*
- 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
645 Views
*NM*
- 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
645 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question.
- 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM
973 Views
Eh, practically useless.
- 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM
929 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM*
- 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM
512 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though.
- 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM
1499 Views
