is weaker than Moiraine.
Meaning whether we use your scale or mine, there needs to be a non-strength explanation for why Barasine can hold Egwene and Amys cannot.
Meaning whether we use your scale or mine, there needs to be a non-strength explanation for why Barasine can hold Egwene and Amys cannot.
Or maybe you're trying to put a triangular block into a square hole.
It's a screwed-up half-ass magic system that has huge flaws in it. Amys can't do it properly, but we're expected to eat the theory that Barasine or Katerine can at a much later stage in the books when Egwene is getting really skilled and powerful. Sometimes I can't believe we give this stuff the time of day. It's clearly got huge errors in it.
RJ's answer would no doubt have been that Barasine has a shielding talent, or some such unprovable thing which he used to cover his inconsistencies from time to time.
Silviana says that she's going to replace the Sisters in the morning with two new ones. Does the whole Tower have the Talent?
Bah... what a waste of time.
Did RJ revise the One Power system towards the latter part of the series? Say around books 9 and 10? That would coincide with the Cleansing, where smaller circles suddenly matched very powerful Forsaken?
IMO, there were several genres in the OP in the series, though he'll never admit it. It's exactly why he's keeping it vague.
In the first half of the series, men were clearly made to be stronger in every way. He added all the BS about dexterity later when he decided to equalize them, no doubt realizing that 1,000 Ash'aman would utterly pillage the WT if men were twice as strong as Asmodean claimed.
He's also gone through a strength thing, where everyone was supremely powerful in the beginning i.e. Moghedien > 10 strongest Sisters in the Tower, and Be'lal can destroy us without moving from his throne. Later he made everyone equal. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually did change the scale to make the average women 50, and expect us to accept it.
By book 13 we'll have Rand vs Morgase, with strict disclaimers shouting about rare Talents, dexterity, willpower and bravery explaining how she can shield Rand.
I tend to agree with you, although you can't really blame the man! Plot realities called for some of the changes, like showing that the Forsaken are still human (I'll even give him a mulligan on this one since the myths of the Forsaken in the first 3 books made it necessary to make them seem practically omnipotent.
Here's a Moiraine-ism that I think highlights how loose the OP system was at the beginning:
EoTW
Listen to the Wind
"You have great potential, I think," Moiraine continued. "With training you might become even more powerful than Egwene, and I believe she can become one of the most powerful Aes Sedai we have seen in centuries."
Back in EoTW it seems even AS aren't all that sure how strong someone can become... obviously RJ made changes.
Personally I think the biggest shift we've seen in the OP strength area has been the difference between men and women. At one point RJ started telling and showing us how much stronger men were, but to your point it clearly dawned on him that it wouldn't work unless he toned it back or created some additional mitigating factors. Links seem a lot more potent, mixed circles seem to actually enhance strength and suddenly there are a lot more women with a good bit of OP strength (by AS standards) in the Tower.
I do think he's stayed more consistent with Talents and skill though. Even in the very beginning Siuan tells Nynaeve that with training no 1 Sister could block her from the source, and even in the above quote Moiraine stresses the importance of training.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount
- 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM
2432 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking!
- 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM
1356 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength...
- 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM
1192 Views
See the question again man!
- 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM
1163 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman...
- 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM
1248 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing!
- 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
1181 Views
- 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
1181 Views
Think logically for a moment...
- 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM
1018 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine?
- 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM
1306 Views
Aviendha did in FoH...
- 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM
1008 Views
Nope!
- 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM
1189 Views
Your quotes are faulty
- 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM
1172 Views
In what sense though?
- 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM
1172 Views
Forkroot
- 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM
1139 Views
Again... later that night?
- 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM
996 Views
What do you mean?
- 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM
1159 Views
See below...
- 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM
1051 Views
Re: See below...
- 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM
1112 Views
I just did.
- 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM
958 Views
Well then we disagree
- 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM
1161 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT!
- 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM
976 Views
Ah, you mean later later ...
- 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM
1089 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know?
- 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM
1184 Views
Yes I know
- 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM
1196 Views
I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM
1149 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM
1148 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM
1090 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
- 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM
1149 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine?
- 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM
1189 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe?
- 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM
999 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ!
- 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM
1103 Views
In that case, there is no problem...
- 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM
1227 Views
But that isn't what the text says...
- 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM
953 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then?
- 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM
1209 Views
Yeah, both were RJ
- 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM
1063 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate.
- 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM
1156 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
1156 Views
- 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
1156 Views
Really?
- 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM
1013 Views
Re: Really?
- 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM
1149 Views
Here's what is clear:
- 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM
1060 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove
- 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
1038 Views
Dude...
- 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM
957 Views
At least we agree on one thing
- 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM
1070 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3
- 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM
887 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point
- 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM
996 Views
The rate forkroot wears off?
- 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM
1114 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all!
- 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM
1005 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this...
- 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM
913 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did.
- 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM
1022 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off...
- 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM
1017 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield...
- 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM
1008 Views
Easy...
- 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM
974 Views
What has that got to do with it?
- 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM
1161 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half..
- 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM
1081 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who...
- 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM
1199 Views
I can agree with that.
- 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM
961 Views
...
- 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM
966 Views
Agreed, but...
- 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM
1123 Views
Re: Agreed, but...
- 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM
917 Views
Good point...
- 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM
1132 Views
Re: Good point...
- 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM
1196 Views
We've had this discussion before
- 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM
1125 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list...
- 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM
985 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense
- 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM
935 Views
Uhhh?
- 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM
940 Views
Re: Uhhh?
- 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM
945 Views
DUDE!
- 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM
960 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily...
- 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM
1610 Views
That's fairly simple, actually...
- 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM
1182 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai...
- 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM
1159 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM*
- 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM
548 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right...
- 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM
1238 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages...
- 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM
985 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them...
- 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM
991 Views
Very poor evidence
- 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM
1129 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined
- 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM
1062 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined...
- 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM
1108 Views
Here's the problem with that...
- 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM
971 Views
I think you are misreading her.
- 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM
953 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM*
- 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM
590 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution.
- 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM
1159 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals.
- 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM
1014 Views
I don't agree
- 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM
1004 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you.
- 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM
1196 Views
Hmm...
- 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM
931 Views
Because of the question to which she responded...
- 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM
940 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded...
- 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM
1091 Views
Without contradicting the latter...
- 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM
990 Views
Ah well
- 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM
969 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified!
- 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM
1193 Views
Nope...
- 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM
1055 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50?
- 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
1087 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55?
- 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM
955 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys!
- 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM
897 Views
Amys can't hold her properly
- 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM
930 Views
What about later that night?
- 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM
955 Views
No she didn't
- 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM
1068 Views
No she didn't what?
- 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM
1113 Views
Re: No she didn't what?
- 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM
963 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale?
- 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM
1058 Views
That's simple...
- 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM
1042 Views
Re: That's simple...
- 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM
991 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it.
- 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM
1171 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body.
- 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM
1021 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new
- 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
1131 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before
- 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM
1209 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing
- 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM
959 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing...
- 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM
1236 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second...
- 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM
976 Views
That still proves my point...
- 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM
1145 Views
Re: That still proves my point...
- 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM
1013 Views
Then why...
- 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM
1101 Views
Re: Then why...
- 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM
982 Views
God, what stupidity!
- 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM
954 Views
Re: God, what stupidity!
- 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM
1059 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100.
- 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM
998 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100.
- 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM
1292 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility...
- 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM
1134 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
- 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
1062 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM
1040 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM
1141 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
- 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM
1108 Views
I agree
- 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM
1202 Views
Re: I agree
- 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM
982 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out"
- 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM
1018 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM*
- 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM
566 Views
Actually she said "No"...
*NM*
- 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
663 Views
*NM*
- 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
663 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question.
- 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM
1014 Views
Eh, practically useless.
- 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM
965 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM*
- 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM
533 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though.
- 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM
1544 Views
