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I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM

The more you hold, the more difficult it is to shield you. So if he held only a tiny trickle - small enough that Rand would not sense it on the hill above - then maybe she could. But then, so could Arangar shield Graendal if she was only holding a trickle of saidar, and had her back turned to him. It goes both ways.

So it doesn't really tell us anything about their comparative strengths, if that's what you're trying to get at.

When Talaan shields Nynaeve, for instance, it is surprise that wins the day, despite both women being equally strong and holding the full amount of the OP. Same with Nyn vs. Moggy, were the shield rammed home when Moggy got momentarily distracted.

And by itself, Graendal being able to shield Aran'gar is no surprise at all. I've seen absolutely no evidence that Aran'gar is stronger than Sammael, yet Moridin says a Graendal vs. Sammael battle could have gone either way. That is enough proof for me that Graendal exceeds Aran'gar.

As for Graendal's angreal, what is critical is if she had it or not. She does mention losing several priceless OP artifacts in Natrin's Barrow. Even if she had it, though, I really doubt it gave her anywhere near 2x her strength. Elayne is a useless counter example since she has no great experience with angreal, and only had stronger angreal to make her comparison with. The weakest in the bunch seemed weak to her, which is no surprise.

But with Graendal, the case is different. In her own words:

The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

2x Graendal is definitely stronger than even Rand. Saying that wasn't offering much is a stretch, but then she compares what she gets from it to her own strength. The implication is that it makes her somewhat stronger, but not enough to overmatch stronger Foresaken. If she could do so, she would have said she can overwhelm anything they throw at her, which she clearly is not.

Thus, even with the angreal, I find the fact that she wove two shields and a gateway impressive, and confirming the fact that she was stronger than Aran'gar. It may indicate that as Lanfear was to Moridin, Graendal was to Demandred.
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I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2404 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1398 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1351 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2277 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3075 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2115 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2424 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2199 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2714 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2267 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2225 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2237 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2193 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2082 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2301 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2195 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 2005 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2117 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2359 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2234 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2051 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2146 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2134 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2083 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2196 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2109 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1165 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1273 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1974 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2528 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 2013 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 2008 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2156 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 2016 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2053 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1896 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 2009 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 2018 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2038 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 2006 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1981 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1971 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 2044 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1963 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1902 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1997 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1907 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1958 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1221 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1059 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1856 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2107 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2911 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1788 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1907 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2047 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1960 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1893 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1941 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1840 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1969 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1938 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2066 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3963 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1968 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1976 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1958 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1915 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2729 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2687 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1982 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2040 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1918 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1940 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2044 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 2023 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1886 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1202 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1256 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1204 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1959 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1914 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1907 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 2027 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1905 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1907 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1797 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1954 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2062 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1950 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1833 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 2014 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2187 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1984 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2136 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1898 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1990 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1910 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1929 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1241 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1197 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1965 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1931 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1897 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 2012 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1985 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1964 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1914 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 3013 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3426 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1908 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1902 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1852 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1965 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1904 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1898 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 2010 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1830 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 2006 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1849 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1903 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1921 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1870 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1940 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1951 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2052 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1160 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2188 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2191 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2081 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1954 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2042 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2151 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1220 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1275 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1921 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1211 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1958 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2573 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1993 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2148 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2040 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2116 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2077 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1958 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2120 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2174 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1189 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2341 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1979 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2029 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2188 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1976 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2164 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2076 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2111 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2047 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2735 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2034 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2050 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1960 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1225 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1969 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2515 Views

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