I don't think strength is the only determinant...
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM
The more you hold, the more difficult it is to shield you. So if he held only a tiny trickle - small enough that Rand would not sense it on the hill above - then maybe she could. But then, so could Arangar shield Graendal if she was only holding a trickle of saidar, and had her back turned to him. It goes both ways.
So it doesn't really tell us anything about their comparative strengths, if that's what you're trying to get at.
When Talaan shields Nynaeve, for instance, it is surprise that wins the day, despite both women being equally strong and holding the full amount of the OP. Same with Nyn vs. Moggy, were the shield rammed home when Moggy got momentarily distracted.
And by itself, Graendal being able to shield Aran'gar is no surprise at all. I've seen absolutely no evidence that Aran'gar is stronger than Sammael, yet Moridin says a Graendal vs. Sammael battle could have gone either way. That is enough proof for me that Graendal exceeds Aran'gar.
As for Graendal's angreal, what is critical is if she had it or not. She does mention losing several priceless OP artifacts in Natrin's Barrow. Even if she had it, though, I really doubt it gave her anywhere near 2x her strength. Elayne is a useless counter example since she has no great experience with angreal, and only had stronger angreal to make her comparison with. The weakest in the bunch seemed weak to her, which is no surprise.
But with Graendal, the case is different. In her own words:
The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.
2x Graendal is definitely stronger than even Rand. Saying that wasn't offering much is a stretch, but then she compares what she gets from it to her own strength. The implication is that it makes her somewhat stronger, but not enough to overmatch stronger Foresaken. If she could do so, she would have said she can overwhelm anything they throw at her, which she clearly is not.
Thus, even with the angreal, I find the fact that she wove two shields and a gateway impressive, and confirming the fact that she was stronger than Aran'gar. It may indicate that as Lanfear was to Moridin, Graendal was to Demandred.
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
- 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
9230 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
- 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
2632 Views
A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
2406 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
2351 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
1353 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
1458 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
- 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
2529 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
- 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
1314 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
1341 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
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Regarding Graendal
- 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
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a very weak angreal
- 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
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Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
- 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
2198 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream
- 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
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Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
2359 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
- 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
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OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
- 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
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Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
- 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
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Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
- 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
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I think so, yes.
- 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
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I don't think so actually
- 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
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I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
- 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
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I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
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Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
- 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
1993 Views
So here's what happens...
- 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
2528 Views
Thanks. A few comments...
- 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
2013 Views
I don't rule out the angreal...
- 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
2008 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
- 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
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I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
- 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
2009 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
- 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
2018 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
- 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
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How did she know there was a shield?
- 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
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Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
- 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
1981 Views
Who said "they"?
- 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
1971 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
- 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
2044 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant...
- 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM
1963 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
- 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
1902 Views
Provide evidence?
- 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
1997 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
- 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
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Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
- 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
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And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
- 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
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More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
- 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
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So?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
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It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
- 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
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we don't know that
- 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
1960 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
- 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
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Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
- 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
1840 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
- 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
1969 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
1938 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
2066 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
- 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
3963 Views
Well...
- 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
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She says...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
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no one is arguing that
- 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
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Er...
- 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
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I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
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Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
2687 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
- 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
1982 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
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Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
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- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
1940 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
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Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
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. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
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Really?
- 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
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Re: Really?
- 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
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That's my point *NM*
- 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
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Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
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*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
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The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
- 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
1907 Views
Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
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Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
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Nope
- 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
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Re: Nope
- 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
1954 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
- 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
1833 Views
Well...
- 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
2014 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
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Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
1984 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
- 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
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Re: How did she know there was a shield?
- 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
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You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
- 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
1301 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
- 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
1929 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
1241 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
- 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
1197 Views
Well, exactly!
- 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
1965 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
- 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
2226 Views
What I think happened
- 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
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It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
1897 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
2012 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
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Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
3426 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
- 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
1908 Views
she never shielded them
- 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
1902 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
- 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
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This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
1965 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
1904 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
- 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
2010 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
- 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
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Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
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Re: Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
1870 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
1970 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
2005 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
- 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
1940 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
- 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
1951 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this
- 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
2188 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
- 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
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Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
1181 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
1960 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
- 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
2061 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
- 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
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I'm happy there wasn't...
- 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
2040 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
1992 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
2131 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
- 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
1878 Views
For the record
- 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
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I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
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Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
- 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
2103 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
- 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
1957 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
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No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
1211 Views
I tend to agree
- 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
1958 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
- 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
2573 Views
Yes, but its still a little off
- 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
1993 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand?
- 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
2116 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
- 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
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I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
1945 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
1868 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
- 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
1843 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
- 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
1971 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
- 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
1234 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
- 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
1183 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
2111 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
2047 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2114 Views
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
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I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
- 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
2735 Views
No way
- 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
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I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
- 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
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*NM*

*NM*
*NM*