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What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM

Holding the power or not ... I find it highly unlikely that anyone could cut off a Forsaken level channeler while performing all the other acts Graendal managed ... perhaps if her angreal was quite a bit stronger than we have been led to believe it would be possible.

Siuan and Asmo were exhausted/distracted and Nynaeve is so poorly trained in things like this that it's laughable...

Egwene didn't know there was a shield on her when Amys shielded her either ... but she was also asleep when it was done ...

I just don't see that there is a "standard" here ... it's case by case. IMO the evidence with Aran'gar is that she wasn't already holding the Power or Graendal wouldn't have been able to shield her so easily.

Your argument boils down to: I don't like the evidence since it challenges my preconceptions. So I will say the evidence is worthless.

By your logic, there is no proof that stronger channelers can shield very weak channelers. Its all a case by case basis, and so I can argue that Rand can't shield Morghase, even though he did manage to shield Egwene and Elayne at one go.

Incidentally, when Egwene was completely fixated on Rand in tSR, he shields her and she doesn't feel it till she reaches for the source. That conclusively proves that you need to reach for the source to feel the shield from someone of the opposite sex. But I suppose this is a "case" that doesn't satisfy you either?
This message last edited by fionwe1987 on 22/09/2010 at 05:23:07 PM
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9517 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2806 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2651 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2580 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2389 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2526 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1553 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2656 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1581 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2747 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1495 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1446 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1487 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2590 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1523 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1560 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2471 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3285 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2316 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2624 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2426 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2916 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2556 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2460 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2487 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2404 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2281 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2400 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2508 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2416 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 2237 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2325 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2556 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2439 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2248 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2343 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2337 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2278 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2408 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2332 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1274 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 2177 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1413 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 2223 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2732 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 2259 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 2191 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2379 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 2203 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2251 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 2081 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 2253 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 2234 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2259 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 2198 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 2189 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 2203 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 2255 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 2160 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 2103 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 2196 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 2093 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 2156 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1335 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1174 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 2152 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2332 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 3103 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 2014 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 2095 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2260 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 2160 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 2087 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 2127 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 2018 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 2176 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 2124 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2278 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 4187 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 2166 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 2183 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 2162 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 2103 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2917 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2903 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 2198 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2228 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 2144 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 2139 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2237 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 2213 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 2086 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1333 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1380 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1323 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 2147 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 2107 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 2120 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 2271 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 2116 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 2096 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1992 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 2136 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2249 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 2151 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 2031 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 2217 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2440 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 2227 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 2160 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2349 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 2074 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 2175 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 2114 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1417 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 2119 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1358 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1333 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 2161 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2439 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 2136 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 2085 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 2232 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 2232 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 2160 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 2142 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 3209 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3612 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 2110 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 2105 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 2077 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 2160 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 2096 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 2119 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 2202 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 2038 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 2239 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 2088 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 2100 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 2125 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 2084 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 2189 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 2222 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 2155 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 2145 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2252 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1289 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2384 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 2224 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1297 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 2172 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 2253 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 2305 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 2223 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 2180 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 2337 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 2100 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 2084 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2375 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2288 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 2159 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2223 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1470 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 2301 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 2150 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2321 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1338 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1478 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 2135 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1321 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 2137 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2772 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 2175 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2349 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2234 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2315 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2285 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 2170 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2301 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2404 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1300 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2565 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 2163 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2240 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2406 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 2140 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 2055 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 2032 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 2204 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2374 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 2154 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1359 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1306 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2255 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2314 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2247 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 2306 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2919 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2239 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2249 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 2148 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 2342 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1334 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 2181 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2743 Views
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