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Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM

Being a dick to people does not make your thoughts stronger. It just makes you look like a child.

So your answer to that is to dismiss all evidence from the novels? Classy.

Egwene was barely into her training too ... she and Aran'gar are totally different animals in the cases you point out.

No they are not. I fail to see what training has to do with this. This isn't some channeling technique. This is supposed to be instinctive. You're saying people are aware of what's happening to their connection to the True Source even when they aren't using it/aware of it. At that point in the story, Egwene could already channel at will, make shields, and see the glow around other women. If this ability to detect saidin shields even without reaching for the source exists, nothing in her future training has equipped her for it. If you're claiming this is a learned ability, like ignoring the heat, then the burden of proof is on you. If you think this is an instinctive ability, there is overwhelming evidence against you.

My point here is that Aran'gar should be far too strong for Graendal to cut off so easily, especially since she is splitting her flows. One "gasp" from Aran'gar is not IMO sufficient evidence to conclusively prove that she was already holding saidin when the shield was put on her. We'll never know either way unless someone asks the author ... and if he agrees with you I'd love to hear him explain how Graendal managed such an impressive feat of channeling.

Yeah... hold on to that fantasy.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9363 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2710 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2536 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2460 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2293 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2431 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1464 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2556 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1512 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2628 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1429 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1369 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1389 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2493 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1446 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1468 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2371 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3177 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2219 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2526 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2297 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2815 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2387 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2316 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2344 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2293 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2179 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2301 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2400 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2303 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 2117 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2212 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2461 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2327 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2155 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2238 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2232 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2183 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2303 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2207 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1213 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 2079 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1328 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 2112 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2632 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 2115 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 2092 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2250 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 2102 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2137 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1985 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 2115 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 2135 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2162 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 2099 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 2076 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 2077 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 2148 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 2067 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1992 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 2091 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 2005 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 2055 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1271 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1112 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1948 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2208 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 3002 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1894 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1993 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2135 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 2054 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1988 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 2034 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1928 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 2058 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 2022 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2179 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 4072 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 2055 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 2072 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 2057 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 2003 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2822 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2788 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 2071 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2126 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 2018 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 2040 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2142 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 2119 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1983 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1259 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1311 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1254 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 2053 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 2008 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 2001 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 2129 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 2007 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1995 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1898 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 2042 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2148 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 2051 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1924 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 2123 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2283 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 2100 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 2064 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2239 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1981 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 2075 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 2001 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1350 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 2019 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1294 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1247 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 2058 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2327 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 2027 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1990 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 2100 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 2088 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 2063 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 2022 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 3101 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3519 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 2010 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 2004 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1947 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 2061 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 2000 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1997 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 2107 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1924 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 2118 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1954 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1995 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 2019 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1965 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 2072 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 2115 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 2046 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 2047 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2154 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1208 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2284 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 2116 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1236 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 2057 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 2148 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 2171 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 2130 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 2088 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 2239 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1982 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1964 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2278 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2196 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 2050 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2125 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1393 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 2188 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 2053 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2229 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1274 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1389 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 2031 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1254 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 2046 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2669 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 2080 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2257 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2145 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2219 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2173 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 2067 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2203 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2278 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1243 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2440 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 2065 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2129 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2287 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 2039 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1960 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1930 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 2072 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2278 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 2063 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1292 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1236 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2164 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2213 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2140 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 2203 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2830 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2140 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2145 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 2054 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 2226 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1276 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 2068 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2624 Views
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