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I would agree Sidious Send a noteboard - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM
Arguments that Aran'gar couldn't have survived if he was weaker don't make sense, since Moghedien clearly did. None of the Forsaken seem to think Moghedien was especially weak in the OP. Which tells me the general range of the Forsaken is a little more spread out.

I also think the fact that Graendal can do all this either on her own or with a weak angreal proves that she is at the higher levels, and almost certainly equalled Sammael at least, as Moridin's PoV suggested. This also lends further credence to the theory that Lanfear was, for all intents and purposes, as strong as Rand and Ishamael.


1. Graendal's "weak" angreal was strong enough that with less than half of its power she could shield Cyndane (who is stronger than her) and Moghedien at the same time. So it makes shielding Arangar and Delana pretty inconsequential by comparison.

2. Because of the presence of the angreal - which she ALWAYS wears on her finger, any other conclusions are meaningless.


Considering Elayne considers her angreal 'not strong' despite its enormous advantage, I would assume the same from Graendal.

I don't think you can use the Cyndane/Moghedien scene. Cyndane never held saidar at any stage in that scene, and Moghedien did. Graendal can obviously overwhelm Moghedien, and Cyndane just stood there. Not only that, but she didn't shield them - she used Compulsion on them.

I don't think many people have ever considered Aran'gar to be one of the strongest of the Forsaken. I've always thought him to be very strong, but closer to men like Asmodean and Be'lal, and not in the league of Ishamael and Demandred.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8804 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2500 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2254 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2203 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2057 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2179 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1267 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2289 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1360 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2370 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1261 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1246 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1233 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2231 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1312 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1226 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2094 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2877 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1962 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2287 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2049 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2551 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2113 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2063 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2067 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2013 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1899 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2061 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2125 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2015 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1830 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1957 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2167 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2078 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1879 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2003 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1986 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1932 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2011 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1940 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1082 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1828 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1189 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1819 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2358 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1845 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1861 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2008 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1853 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1898 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1738 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1832 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1867 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1886 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1837 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1810 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1804 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1862 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1826 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1769 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1810 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1734 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1815 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1133 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 991 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1730 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1958 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2768 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1653 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1734 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1866 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1807 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1736 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1785 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1684 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1798 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1777 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1911 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3819 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1835 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1843 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1790 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1742 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2571 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2536 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1808 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1869 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1787 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1771 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1902 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1863 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1738 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1125 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1163 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1135 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1791 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1769 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1742 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1871 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1738 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1730 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1638 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1798 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1906 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1795 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1671 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1855 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1988 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1834 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1830 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1954 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1740 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1831 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1777 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1236 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1775 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1166 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1119 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1810 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2056 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1773 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1749 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1831 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1802 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1829 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1747 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2862 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3284 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1732 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1746 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1699 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1812 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1747 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1762 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1844 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1674 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1823 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1679 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1762 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1750 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1703 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1806 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1865 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1754 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1792 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1894 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1087 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2004 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1874 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1095 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1783 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1890 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 1912 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1895 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1846 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 1968 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1723 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1728 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2047 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1938 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1818 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1877 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1249 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 1947 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1830 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2011 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1140 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1190 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1765 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1148 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1800 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2414 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1837 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2002 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1901 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1961 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1933 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1808 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1967 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2015 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1104 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2207 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1834 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1869 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2008 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1792 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1736 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1681 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1857 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2006 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1846 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1149 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1107 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1915 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1947 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1882 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 1949 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2560 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1860 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1896 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1811 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 1965 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1153 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1823 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2335 Views
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