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Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power DomA Send a noteboard - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM
Skill clearly sets the top 6 apart ... Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage clearly had the best combination of Power, skill and savvy. Aginor and the others could have had more strength, but either skill or personality kept them from the highest rungs.



Perhaps they're all close in raw strength, and perhaps they're not so close as that. The fact you guys still argue over their strengths after 13 books is because we don't have enough information to be certain of anything. And one of the main reasons we don't is because the Chosen themselves tend to factor their raw strength advantages or disadvantages for much, much less than third age channellers whose knowledge of the OP is minimal and forcing them to rely on simpler tricks most often dependent on raw strength.

The Chosen come from an Age where personal angreal and mixed gender circles were common place. None of them is stupid enough to rely primarily on strength when they've learned to fight in a War where a woman like Lanfear might have to fight for her life against a much weaker underling who suddenly acquired an angreal. They've all learned to rely on their best skills.

Raw strengths comparisons don't come naturally to them the way it does for third age Aes Sedai. Some of them might be very close in raw strength, I tend to think there might be some gaps larger than we think, but I think the differences whatever they are aren't very apparent anyway, far less than among AS, because they all come from the same crucible of pre-Collapse full Aes Sedai training, while OP knowledge vary a very great deal more between third Age channelers (groups, ajah, individuals keep some of their discoveries secret). Not only that, but they've all fought in the same war, picked up a lot of the same tricks developed for destruction and fighting other channellers.

We see this reflected a lot in the series. It's in their vastly superior knowledge and skills the Chosen systematically glorify themselves with (and they're keener to compare their special skills, their non-OP related skills and weaknesses and their respective cunning than anything else), while among third Agers, it's the raw strength of the Forsaken they find amazing and intimidating... They push this to the point of absurdity, like believing that the Cleansing was the female Forsaken working together...

We see the Forsaken barely ever referring to their respective strengths. They know all thirteen have pretty much the same basic knowledge and training, and all of them have learned to use their best skills rather than rely on their strength. In the pre-Shadow days, they wouldn't have let their strength limit them, they simply had to use an angreal at need. Even Lanfear knows better than to count on a gap between her and Graendal, Moghedien and Mesaana, when that gap might be filled at any time by an hidden angreal.

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How many standard deviations is Lanfear - 15/11/2012 06:04:39 PM 2427 Views
Well... - 15/11/2012 07:02:45 PM 1434 Views
Hmm... - 15/11/2012 07:25:34 PM 1529 Views
see we CAN agree on stuff - 15/11/2012 07:56:12 PM 1381 Views
- 18/11/2012 08:37:22 PM 1228 Views
We've always been close with everything except the scale - 18/11/2012 10:29:07 PM 1266 Views
Re: - 18/11/2012 11:07:17 PM 1454 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 05:16:00 AM 1291 Views
Re: - 19/11/2012 03:13:01 PM 1288 Views
They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 03:19:19 PM 1317 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 04:01:43 PM 1507 Views
Re: They only reject 37.5%, not 62.5% - 19/11/2012 09:04:04 PM 1257 Views
Hmmm... - 20/11/2012 02:08:40 AM 1333 Views
Perhaps, but Egwene is also being a bit dramatic in the scene as she managed - 20/11/2012 04:28:57 AM 1300 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 03:13:13 PM 1369 Views
I believe she is being over dramatic - 20/11/2012 03:26:24 PM 1222 Views
Keep believing that... - 20/11/2012 03:30:14 PM 1359 Views
*shrugs* - 20/11/2012 03:49:10 PM 1343 Views
Tired and forkroot are the same now? - 20/11/2012 03:55:22 PM 1225 Views
No it's the literary device - 20/11/2012 04:04:28 PM 1342 Views
This is getting ridiculous... - 20/11/2012 04:43:13 PM 1224 Views
You are missing my point completely - 20/11/2012 04:50:46 PM 1153 Views
Impossible. Daigian is exactly 0.32SD below the mean - 19/11/2012 11:06:04 AM 1282 Views
You keep saying that, but it is either a linear or a non-linear distribution - 19/11/2012 09:09:32 PM 1359 Views
That's the whole point. Thanks for finally seeing it. - 19/11/2012 09:43:27 PM 1312 Views
keep believing that ... but you making up numbers isn't really relevant *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:29:44 AM 817 Views
Please show me a number that is made up. The 0.32SD for Daigian is a rule of statistics. - 20/11/2012 07:15:48 AM 1239 Views
Go read Fionwe's post about it *NM* - 20/11/2012 02:33:19 PM 826 Views
Is that before or after she started juicing? - 15/11/2012 11:04:14 PM 1281 Views
Wouldn't it be 1 in 105 million? - 21/11/2012 04:56:19 PM 1140 Views
Are you sure that it is a normal distribution? - 16/11/2012 04:21:02 PM 1340 Views
Ugh. I hate power level discussions. For real world applications, it should be kind of meaningless - 16/11/2012 10:28:49 PM 1222 Views
I don't really agree - 18/11/2012 08:40:53 PM 1190 Views
Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 19/11/2012 09:13:48 PM 1244 Views
Re: Perhaps, but we've seen that a MUCH weaker Channeler can win in a duel - 20/11/2012 08:10:01 AM 1224 Views
probably ... Lanfear/Cyndane is clearly remarkably skilled - 20/11/2012 02:35:09 PM 1255 Views
Since I've proven that it's not a normal distribution in units of absolute strength, SDs don't apply - 17/11/2012 07:48:21 PM 1303 Views
You have proven nothing, except that you have an opinion *NM* - 18/11/2012 02:21:35 AM 797 Views
You simply don't get it. It is mathematically a fact. There is no opinion involved. - 18/11/2012 02:19:40 PM 1104 Views
Only because you've assigned numeric values. That you created. - 18/11/2012 02:40:51 PM 1267 Views
It doesn't matter what figure you use... - 18/11/2012 03:01:56 PM 1145 Views
What if Daigian is one third Lanfear's strength? - 18/11/2012 04:37:58 PM 1284 Views
We have a limit for Daigian's strength, as you well know. - 18/11/2012 05:41:49 PM 1234 Views
Are you kidding me? - 18/11/2012 09:07:38 PM 1376 Views
Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:09:31 PM 1280 Views
Re: Sure you can - 18/11/2012 10:54:50 PM 1281 Views
You're right, though its 37.5% - 19/11/2012 12:21:29 AM 1232 Views
Oops, typo! - 19/11/2012 02:54:25 AM 1269 Views
Again, not possible, due to Daigian being just 0.3SD below the Mean - 19/11/2012 08:37:01 AM 1226 Views
Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 04:05:12 PM 1138 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 19/11/2012 05:55:02 PM 1088 Views
Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 19/11/2012 09:19:50 PM 1210 Views
Re: Egwene is about as strong as Melaine and Amys combined - 20/11/2012 02:11:26 AM 1285 Views
Forkroot in every case - 20/11/2012 04:32:26 AM 1231 Views
No! - 20/11/2012 03:15:16 PM 1206 Views
I'm not going to go re-read the books to you on this - 20/11/2012 03:39:46 PM 1223 Views
You need to read it for yourself, since you're completely confused. - 20/11/2012 03:54:26 PM 1222 Views
Not going to argue this with you. - 20/11/2012 04:09:44 PM 1140 Views
Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 04:39:25 PM 1273 Views
let's see, she's both asleep and would need hours to regain her strength - 20/11/2012 04:43:17 PM 1167 Views
Enough! - 20/11/2012 05:04:06 PM 1233 Views
LOL ... whatever. You go on believing that ... no one else sees it this way. *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:20:52 PM 787 Views
What a brilliant argument! - 20/11/2012 05:25:18 PM 1241 Views
this is why I refuse to continue this debate - 20/11/2012 05:31:11 PM 1183 Views
Re: Your own example disproved your point... - 20/11/2012 05:10:15 PM 1256 Views
Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:26:31 PM 1261 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:31:50 PM 1243 Views
Re: Barasine + Katerine isn't that much less than - 20/11/2012 05:42:53 PM 1220 Views
Excuse me? - 20/11/2012 05:28:48 PM 1307 Views
see we can agree on the relative strength of Egwene v. Forsaken - 20/11/2012 05:35:07 PM 1246 Views
??? - 20/11/2012 05:37:01 PM 1323 Views
2 middling sisters - 20/11/2012 05:45:27 PM 1253 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:26:47 AM 1167 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 09:03:40 AM 1203 Views
Re: Egwene is definitely not 2x Amys... - 20/11/2012 02:59:08 PM 1227 Views
None of this is backed by any evidence... - 20/11/2012 03:24:12 PM 1158 Views
who said Cadsuane was 1.5x Moiraine or more? - 20/11/2012 04:03:13 PM 1167 Views
Nope... - 20/11/2012 04:41:35 PM 1190 Views
wrong - 20/11/2012 04:48:50 PM 1141 Views
My bad. Mized up 1/3 and 2/3. - 20/11/2012 05:05:05 PM 1231 Views
gotcha *NM* - 20/11/2012 05:46:21 PM 757 Views
Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 03:18:55 PM 1210 Views
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? - 20/11/2012 04:40:56 PM 1212 Views
Exactly *NM* - 20/11/2012 04:55:28 PM 1185 Views
BEcause Cadsuane is close on the heels of Egwene? - 20/11/2012 05:10:50 PM 1115 Views
I'm not arguing that. I agree that Cadsuane is pretty close to Egwene - 20/11/2012 05:50:34 PM 1258 Views
Re: Better evidence? LOL! - 20/11/2012 05:00:47 PM 1128 Views
Interesting, but let's go with your figures... - 19/11/2012 06:54:54 AM 1291 Views
Indeed - 19/11/2012 08:16:44 AM 1318 Views
Rand is sort of a special case - 20/11/2012 04:25:02 AM 1179 Views
Regarding Mesaana... - 20/11/2012 08:42:56 AM 1207 Views
You continue to mix two things - 20/11/2012 03:24:44 PM 1132 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:54:19 PM 1388 Views
You are mistaken - 20/11/2012 05:04:40 PM 1202 Views
Yes she did Darius! - 20/11/2012 05:27:36 PM 1154 Views
Yet there is no duel - 20/11/2012 06:01:17 PM 1142 Views
Explain the .3xSD thing to me... - 19/11/2012 04:58:57 PM 1384 Views
Probably, but the AS have no idea what 37.5% means - 19/11/2012 02:59:26 AM 1160 Views
It's irrelevant - 19/11/2012 03:46:42 AM 1253 Views
Agreed. Daigian is the marker of the absolute bottom of Aes Sedai strength. - 19/11/2012 06:55:41 AM 1204 Views
Daigian - 19/11/2012 08:12:19 AM 1213 Views
It is a direct marker due to RJ's quote - 19/11/2012 08:50:26 AM 1247 Views
You missed my point - 19/11/2012 09:08:42 AM 1171 Views
Re: You missed my point - 19/11/2012 02:18:33 PM 1275 Views
Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 04:41:11 AM 1187 Views
Re: Asmodean would never have made the comment about 13 weakest AS - 20/11/2012 09:07:49 AM 1152 Views
Which would make an average AS around a 30 - 20/11/2012 04:58:56 PM 1066 Views
Re: Sure you can - 19/11/2012 09:22:09 AM 1304 Views
Care to explain this... - 19/11/2012 05:06:28 PM 1110 Views
Indeed - 20/11/2012 07:16:37 AM 1317 Views
Explained far better than I ever could. Bravo. - 20/11/2012 07:30:29 AM 1188 Views
Well duh. - 20/11/2012 02:57:24 PM 1280 Views
Incorrect. - 20/11/2012 04:28:07 PM 1285 Views
No - 20/11/2012 04:44:16 PM 1260 Views
Re: No - 20/11/2012 04:48:36 PM 1230 Views
That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:18:46 PM 1108 Views
Re: That depends... - 20/11/2012 05:31:03 PM 1667 Views
You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 02:55:06 PM 1223 Views
Re: You're integrating without lower limits... - 20/11/2012 04:37:57 PM 1276 Views
It matters. - 20/11/2012 05:22:40 PM 1268 Views
We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 04:44:24 AM 1063 Views
Re: We are not talking about a normal distribution in any case - 20/11/2012 07:02:47 AM 1266 Views
You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 03:10:09 PM 1143 Views
Re: You must tell me of this special math... - 20/11/2012 04:29:40 PM 1212 Views
Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:45:42 PM 1299 Views
Re: Morghase is a placeholder... - 20/11/2012 04:49:54 PM 1575 Views
Why? - 20/11/2012 05:23:29 PM 1241 Views
Re: Why? - 20/11/2012 05:36:45 PM 1540 Views
Well... - 18/11/2012 08:43:59 PM 1278 Views
Re: Well... - 19/11/2012 03:40:44 PM 1256 Views
Wow. - 19/11/2012 03:53:47 PM 1270 Views
Re: Wow. - 19/11/2012 04:26:09 PM 1302 Views
Some points - 19/11/2012 06:03:00 PM 1327 Views
Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 06:09:36 PM 1205 Views
Re: Well then you're both wrong I'm afraid - 19/11/2012 07:42:58 PM 1076 Views
this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 04:51:20 AM 1276 Views
Agreed - 20/11/2012 08:13:37 AM 1339 Views
probably - 20/11/2012 06:18:45 PM 1167 Views
Re: this is why I think all of the Forsaken are very close in Power - 20/11/2012 02:45:18 PM 1204 Views
I think RJ went out of his way to keep strength a bit of a mystery - 20/11/2012 08:42:44 PM 1247 Views
Indeed... - 21/11/2012 05:44:18 PM 1158 Views
I agree - 22/11/2012 01:43:02 AM 1421 Views
Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 21/11/2012 05:12:24 PM 1222 Views
the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 02:55:03 AM 1297 Views
Re: the problem is that the Mean is not going to tell us much really - 22/11/2012 03:15:33 AM 1584 Views
I do not think you can calculate the Mean without knowing the Units of Power - 22/11/2012 03:53:59 AM 1357 Views
Re: Math gurus...Is it possible to find the missing variable... - 23/11/2012 02:59:12 PM 1661 Views
Disregard this post *NM* - 23/11/2012 03:02:24 PM 1033 Views

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