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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
Egwene has been the most mature of the Emonds Fielders since the beginning. Since the start of the series she's openly stated that she's wanted to become an Aes Sedai. Nynaeve, Mat, Rand and Perrin all denied and resented their destinies for the greater part of the series. How can you say that everyone has matured except Egwene? If anything, the others are finally starting to behave like adults.


That's a completely unfair assertion. Egwene was offered a life of power, decadence and greatness as an AS. Rand was offered a life where he would kill millions of people, the world would lie upon his shoulders, and he would eventually go insane and kill his loved ones to boot. Hardly a fair comparison. Egwene seems immature because she doesn't seem to realise the price that her actions demand until after she acts. She only seems to be aware of how badly she could mess things up in a very vague way.

There are multiple quotes in the series showing that Rand doesn't want to trust Egwene. He's paranoid by nature.


Actually, in EotW, he is anything but paranoid. However, his situation has forced him to carefully consider who is friend or foe. Even in TGS at his darkest hour he still keeps Nynaeve and Min close, he isn't totally gone. After what he has been through, I'd consider that to be a miraculous level of trust.

Egwene on the other hand openly announces her affiliation and allegiance to the WO and WT, and Rand has seen how these groups force their members to think alike. He clearly holds hope that Egwene still supports him, but he is realistic - he understandably wants her to show him some support before he trusts her fully. That only makes sense.

When she arrived to warn him about the Aes Sedai trying to capture him, he laughs at her and ignores her warning, only to be captured a week later and tortured. By TGS, everyone is afraid of Rand, even his own father. And don't forget... he is insane due to some effect of the taint, and other issues.


And yet even then, in his darkest hour, he pulls back from truly destructive actions and knows what is right. He is the golden standard because his actions have always been made with the best of intentions, except for the last half of TGS (so 1/24th, or ~4% of the series) where as you said, he wasn't himself anyway. Moiraine, Nynaeve and even Cadsuane have come to respect his decision making, if not his behaviour.

I think if you put Egwene in Rand's position, the world would have been destroyed by now.

Almost all the Emond's Fielders treat Rand the same as they used to. Perrin has nothing to say because he's too dimwitted, but even he has commented. Mat is childish with no real purpose in life unless someone gives it to him, and he too will say something of use. Nynaeve and Egwene are the only two who tell Rand exactly what they think, with Nynaeve doing exactly that in TGS despite his homicidal tendencies. Egwene's certainly going to give him a run for his money when they finally meet. I don't know why you find this surprising or irritating.


As I said, none of them (with the exception of Perrin, who is probably the character who is LEAST dim-witted after Rand - slow but hardly dim) have actually told him anything contrary to his beliefs. He admitted himself that he agreed with Nynaeve's judgement of his actions, and while I respect her for stating her position, his moral compass has been pretty accurate except when it came to the AS at Dumai's Wells, whom I seem to recall he wanted to execute (Perrin stood against him for this; even that fight, however was partly staged so Rand could send him away without revealing his purpose). I didn't agree with Rand in that one scenario, but after what was done to him by those women, I can certainly empathise with him.

Finally, Egwene has obligations as the Amyrlin Seat. She's not going to let the DR enslave the White Tower just because he needs them. He tried that with Tuon and the Borderland armies, and it failed. He needs a new tactic especially against one of the most formidible Amyrlin's in history, who is also notoriously stubborn in his presence.


Come on, Rand would hardly enslave them, especially after his epiphany in TGS. However, if Egwene holds back the support of the Tower to the one man who can save the entire world, then I'd certainly wonder where her moral compass pointed. She might have good intentions, but she needs to realise that the best way to protect her people is to COOPERATE with the DR, not attack him.

My hope for now is that Rand is wise enough (and I think after TGS he is) to allow Egwene to have a rant against him for an hour or two, then after she has cooled down, just say "yes, I'm sorry" to appease her and get things done. I'm certain that if one of them has to take the moral high ground and take a position of humility in order to diffuse the DR/WT tension, it will be Rand, not Egwene.
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God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM 2721 Views
Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor? - 14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM 884 Views
It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go? - 14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM 978 Views
We all do that - 14/02/2010 08:09:51 PM 1037 Views
You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done.... - 14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM 834 Views
Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake - 14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM 1134 Views
I thought she DID say "This I Foretell?" - 14/02/2010 07:24:19 PM 965 Views
Yes she did. - 14/02/2010 07:34:43 PM 1173 Views
Take a sedative - 14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM 1012 Views
somethings we can agree on! - 14/02/2010 08:12:05 PM 994 Views
None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping - 14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM 982 Views
Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed - 14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM 992 Views
If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after... - 14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM 1014 Views
Not really - 14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM 905 Views
Re: Not really - 15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM 915 Views
better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions! - 15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM 1026 Views
This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM 974 Views
actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM 930 Views
Re: actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM 1025 Views
Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM 1045 Views
Re: Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM 878 Views
yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to - 16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM 811 Views
Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it? - 16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM 972 Views
how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 12:27:58 AM 825 Views
Re: how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 03:30:21 AM 1309 Views
watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM 1012 Views
Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM 982 Views
Alright enough. Will you read the books already? - 16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM 1046 Views
Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph. - 16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM 959 Views
You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs. - 16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM 1059 Views
The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM 820 Views
Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM 923 Views
I'm going to agee with fionwe - 16/02/2010 01:07:37 PM 882 Views
Same old same old - 16/02/2010 02:01:12 PM 906 Views
that B*TCH! *NM* - 17/02/2010 03:10:30 AM 662 Views
Re: Same old same old - 17/02/2010 09:32:03 AM 1030 Views
Yes, but Egwene's is pride - - 15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM 929 Views
I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM 912 Views
Re: I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 10:39:25 PM 934 Views
I feel Galad could be up there, but we see so little of him - 16/02/2010 12:28:44 AM 933 Views
are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 01:57:29 AM 895 Views
Re: are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 06:55:16 AM 995 Views
Oh, I don't think so. - 16/02/2010 09:12:57 AM 878 Views
Re: This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 22/02/2010 10:57:27 PM 980 Views
It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM 889 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM 1142 Views
this is hilarious - 15/02/2010 12:45:22 PM 902 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM 1166 Views
Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM* - 15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM 566 Views
Me. And I'm way smarter than you. - 15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM 978 Views
- 15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM 1037 Views
Re: - 15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM 905 Views
Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM 864 Views
Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM 937 Views
You need a re-read my friend - 16/02/2010 01:14:22 PM 923 Views
Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM 1014 Views
Re: Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 03:14:55 PM 969 Views
I've never understood the fascination with Lanfear - 15/02/2010 05:52:27 PM 997 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM 932 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM 875 Views
I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM 999 Views
Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM 841 Views
I don't think so - 14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM 864 Views
Re: I don't think so - 15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM 963 Views
That's pretty much how I see it too - 15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM 890 Views
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM 1107 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM 1004 Views
Cadsuane needs to spank her. - 15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM 990 Views
yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past - 15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM 905 Views
It would be a very amusing moment. - 15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM 873 Views
IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions - 15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM 860 Views
and a massive failure - 15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM 1000 Views
What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower. - 15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM 784 Views
Actually that role is being played by Covril at the Stump *NM* - 15/02/2010 02:13:42 PM 603 Views
If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series - 15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM 824 Views
But that's the point - 15/02/2010 03:26:03 PM 901 Views
Not quite. - 15/02/2010 07:11:56 PM 917 Views
Actually, you can't compare the two. - 15/02/2010 12:04:19 PM 982 Views
No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM 1001 Views
Re: No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:51:28 PM 1010 Views
I actually think it will go the opposite way. - 16/02/2010 03:44:19 PM 940 Views

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