Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
Egwene has been the most mature of the Emonds Fielders since the beginning. Since the start of the series she's openly stated that she's wanted to become an Aes Sedai. Nynaeve, Mat, Rand and Perrin all denied and resented their destinies for the greater part of the series. How can you say that everyone has matured except Egwene? If anything, the others are finally starting to behave like adults.
Nynaeve HAD a job. Egwene did NOT have a destiny. She didn't need to be, either. Rand & co never wanted the power and its trappings, and were lured into them by responsibility. Nynaeve was drawn in the same way. Egwene left Emond's Field for self-gratifying reasons - she wanted an "adventure" and she expressed it in the most immature way possible. Like a little child who sees her brother getting a toy, she wants one of her own, and she says that she's not going to let them go off and have an adventure without her. Nynaeve left because she thought Rand & co were in danger, and they left because they were told they bring danger to their village. Rand took his first leadership role because Hurin was depending on him to get them home safely, Mat blew the Horn because it was the onyl way to save their lives, and Rand accepted the need to proclaim himself because it was all but irrefutably proven who he was. Mat too command of the Band because he saw they were in danger and tried to warn them, and was asked to put his money where his mouth was. He was in that position because he had been in Tear and was known to the nobles, and was only in Tear because he heard of a threat against his acquaintances, most of whom he did not even like, but perceived a duty towards anyway. Perrin is only Lord of the Two Rivers, because he tried to help them. Mat, Perrin and Rand all vehemently denied their nobility or claims of authority and especially the trappings of respect adn courtesies due a lord or king, while Egwene threatened to enforce those same coutesies for her equally spurious claim to the Amyrlin Seat by birching the two most respected and experienced legislators who were selected by her people.There are multiple quotes in the series showing that Rand doesn't want to trust Egwene. He's paranoid by nature. When she arrived to warn him about the Aes Sedai trying to capture him, he laughs at her and ignores her warning, only to be captured a week later and tortured.
And it had nothing to do with her warnings, and those same warnings were diluted by her self-interest and her allegiance to Salidar, which Rand saw. Rand doesn't trust Egwene because she has destroyed her own credibility. She herself concedes in her stream of consciousness that his assessment of her was accurrate: given that she was trying to manipulate him for the benefit of Salidar, why should he take her warnings to heart any more than he should have meekly submitted to Elaida's embassy, many of whom, Verin's interrogation reveals, believed they were kidnapping him for his own good!By TGS, everyone is afraid of Rand, even his own father. And don't forget... he is insane due to some effect of the taint, and other issues.
Almost all the Emond's Fielders treat Rand the same as they used to.
And Egwene is so tolerant of that? She is always mad about being treated the same as she used to be. She gets annoyed at Rand and Mat recalling childhood stuff or presuming familiarity due to long acquaintance, she punishes Two Rivers girls for treating her the same as they used to (and trying to take down the swelling of her head), and despite her claim that she wants Nynaeve and Elayne to treat her the same, she is quick to threaten punishment for them when they try to reason with her about the Oath Rod, and presumes on their relationship in planning to exceed her authority to punish Nynaeve for going off with Rand.Almost all the Emond's Fielders treat Rand the same as they used to.
Perrin has nothing to say because he's too dimwitted, but even he has commented. Mat is childish with no real purpose in life unless someone gives it to him, and he too will say something of use. Nynaeve and Egwene are the only two who tell Rand exactly what they think, with Nynaeve doing exactly that in TGS despite his homicidal tendencies. Egwene's certainly going to give him a run for his money when they finally meet. I don't know why you find this surprising or irritating.
Because she has no grounds or cause, and she speaks as the Amyrlin now. Just as Rand could not speak as a private citizen in expressing a preference for Trakand's continued succession in Andor without it being perceived as the Dragon Reborn dictating terms to a conquered country, so Egwene has to step back into her role and keep her mouth shut or earn her right to talk as a friend by acting as a friend. Either she has to let Rand know privately that she has to put up a tough front as a public figure or she should butt out of what she has very little knowledge of. Nynaeve earned the right by being there with him and for him. Egwene avoided Rand when they were together unless she wanted something from him or it concerned his public actions. Finally, Egwene has obligations as the Amyrlin Seat. She's not going to let the DR enslave the White Tower just because he needs them. He tried that with Tuon and the Borderland armies, and it failed.
He did no such thing. Even if he had for the Seanchan, turnabout is fair play. They are the ones who approve of slavery after all. He did nothing like that for the Borderlands - he did threaten to destroy them, because they constituted a hostile army in a threatening position. You don't want to get blasted? Don't be any army, dumbasses! Armies are legitimate targets, especially outside their borders. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that Rand want's anything from the Tower other than to be left alone and not interfered with or manipulated. And why is the independence of the White Tower so important? Elayne coupled her declarations of independence with assertions of de facto dependence. Every other ruler or group involved with Rand has acquiesced to the need to submit themselves to the greater good. What makes the Tower so special? How are they different from the Sea Folk whom everyone castigates for making a bargain out of their exclusive ability to fix the drought? As I noted in a prior post, it is not like the Tower even has that sort of exclusive ability. The Asha'man and the unbound Wise Ones will be far more useful in the fighting to come, and they far outnumber the Tower. As for the guidance and respect issues, Egwene herself once upon a time acknowledged the superiority of the Wise Ones in building character and practicality and so forth. What does the Tower have that makes them so special, aside from a position of respect and prestige in a society that has largely collapsed and is entirely under the thumb of Rand, his allies or the Tower's enemies, and thus no longer requires their influence to follow Rand.
He needs a new tactic especially against one of the most formidible Amyrlin's in history, who is also notoriously stubborn in his presence.
The essential man for the salvation of the world has to adjust to an upstart who owes much of her formidability as well as her very position to his existence? Is WoT set in Opposite Land?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM
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My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 07:58:01 AM
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Re: My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 09:26:47 AM
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Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor?
14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM
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What? We are no longer allowed to make predictions of the coming books unless they're pro-Egwene?
14/02/2010 02:22:10 PM
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a theory vs. mindlessly attacking a character because you don't like them?
14/02/2010 07:00:27 PM
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It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go?
14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM
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Is Egwene going to do what Elayne did when she met Rand after tearing down his banners?
15/02/2010 11:25:27 AM
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You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done....
14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM
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Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake
14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM
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No way these are fake... she's not BA and she she says she's having a Foretelling
14/02/2010 08:24:29 PM
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Good point. And the "rent in fire and blood" part is almost certain as well.
16/02/2010 05:13:29 PM
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Take a sedative
14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM
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None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM
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Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed
14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM
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If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after...
14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM
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Not really
14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM
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Re: Not really
15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM
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better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions!
15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM
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This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve.
15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM
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actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM
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Re: actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM
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Well said.
15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM
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Re: Well said.
15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM
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yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to
16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM
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Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it?
16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM
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watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM
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Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM
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Alright enough. Will you read the books already?
16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM
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The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM
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Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM
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Yes, but Egwene's is pride -
15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM
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I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none
15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM
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Re: None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
15/02/2010 05:08:49 AM
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It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
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Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM*
15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM
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Me. And I'm way smarter than you.
15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM
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15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM
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Re:
15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM
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Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM
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Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:48:51 PM
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Sidious' problem in a nutshell.
15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM
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I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM
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Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM
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I don't think so
14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM
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Re: I don't think so
15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM
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That's pretty much how I see it too
15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM
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I understood little sister to be a mild insult, Moiraine being so young and weak in the OP *NM*
16/02/2010 08:25:55 PM
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maybe a touch patronizing? *NM*
17/02/2010 12:51:25 PM
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Appears to be, but his thought process implies it's not as simple as him merely looking down on her. *NM*
17/02/2010 05:07:19 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM
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Cadsuane needs to spank her.
15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM
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yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past
15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM
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It would be a very amusing moment.
15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM
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IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions
15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM
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and a massive failure
15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM
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What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower.
15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM
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If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series
15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM
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Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
15/02/2010 09:23:47 PM
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When has she ever actually done that? Rand thinks she will, but so far she's done nothing like it!
16/02/2010 02:08:23 AM
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I meant that EVERYONE is bargaining, posturing, etc.
16/02/2010 02:54:29 AM
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Well miscommunication is one of the major themes of the series
16/02/2010 01:17:25 PM
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the most idiotic theme IMO
16/02/2010 03:27:26 PM
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I don't know if the theme itself is idoitic, but I would totally agree that it's gone nowhere!
17/02/2010 03:16:30 AM
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Re: Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
18/02/2010 01:19:00 AM
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No, Cannoli has the right of it here.
16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM
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Well, all those beatings were in private
16/02/2010 07:54:00 PM
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That was the point of the scene in front of the Sitters during the banquet. *NM*
23/02/2010 06:58:50 PM
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Oh the one where Elaida tried to have her way with Egwene while the Sitters looked away? *NM*
23/02/2010 10:12:04 PM
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Yes. Elaida wanted Egwene to be cowed in front of her into obedience, which would erode her support
23/02/2010 10:18:03 PM
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