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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour Cannoli Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
Egwene has been the most mature of the Emonds Fielders since the beginning. Since the start of the series she's openly stated that she's wanted to become an Aes Sedai. Nynaeve, Mat, Rand and Perrin all denied and resented their destinies for the greater part of the series. How can you say that everyone has matured except Egwene? If anything, the others are finally starting to behave like adults.
Nynaeve HAD a job. Egwene did NOT have a destiny. She didn't need to be, either. Rand & co never wanted the power and its trappings, and were lured into them by responsibility. Nynaeve was drawn in the same way. Egwene left Emond's Field for self-gratifying reasons - she wanted an "adventure" and she expressed it in the most immature way possible. Like a little child who sees her brother getting a toy, she wants one of her own, and she says that she's not going to let them go off and have an adventure without her. Nynaeve left because she thought Rand & co were in danger, and they left because they were told they bring danger to their village. Rand took his first leadership role because Hurin was depending on him to get them home safely, Mat blew the Horn because it was the onyl way to save their lives, and Rand accepted the need to proclaim himself because it was all but irrefutably proven who he was. Mat too command of the Band because he saw they were in danger and tried to warn them, and was asked to put his money where his mouth was. He was in that position because he had been in Tear and was known to the nobles, and was only in Tear because he heard of a threat against his acquaintances, most of whom he did not even like, but perceived a duty towards anyway. Perrin is only Lord of the Two Rivers, because he tried to help them. Mat, Perrin and Rand all vehemently denied their nobility or claims of authority and especially the trappings of respect adn courtesies due a lord or king, while Egwene threatened to enforce those same coutesies for her equally spurious claim to the Amyrlin Seat by birching the two most respected and experienced legislators who were selected by her people.

There are multiple quotes in the series showing that Rand doesn't want to trust Egwene. He's paranoid by nature. When she arrived to warn him about the Aes Sedai trying to capture him, he laughs at her and ignores her warning, only to be captured a week later and tortured.
And it had nothing to do with her warnings, and those same warnings were diluted by her self-interest and her allegiance to Salidar, which Rand saw. Rand doesn't trust Egwene because she has destroyed her own credibility. She herself concedes in her stream of consciousness that his assessment of her was accurrate: given that she was trying to manipulate him for the benefit of Salidar, why should he take her warnings to heart any more than he should have meekly submitted to Elaida's embassy, many of whom, Verin's interrogation reveals, believed they were kidnapping him for his own good!

By TGS, everyone is afraid of Rand, even his own father. And don't forget... he is insane due to some effect of the taint, and other issues.

Almost all the Emond's Fielders treat Rand the same as they used to.
And Egwene is so tolerant of that? She is always mad about being treated the same as she used to be. She gets annoyed at Rand and Mat recalling childhood stuff or presuming familiarity due to long acquaintance, she punishes Two Rivers girls for treating her the same as they used to (and trying to take down the swelling of her head), and despite her claim that she wants Nynaeve and Elayne to treat her the same, she is quick to threaten punishment for them when they try to reason with her about the Oath Rod, and presumes on their relationship in planning to exceed her authority to punish Nynaeve for going off with Rand.

Perrin has nothing to say because he's too dimwitted, but even he has commented. Mat is childish with no real purpose in life unless someone gives it to him, and he too will say something of use. Nynaeve and Egwene are the only two who tell Rand exactly what they think, with Nynaeve doing exactly that in TGS despite his homicidal tendencies. Egwene's certainly going to give him a run for his money when they finally meet. I don't know why you find this surprising or irritating.
Because she has no grounds or cause, and she speaks as the Amyrlin now. Just as Rand could not speak as a private citizen in expressing a preference for Trakand's continued succession in Andor without it being perceived as the Dragon Reborn dictating terms to a conquered country, so Egwene has to step back into her role and keep her mouth shut or earn her right to talk as a friend by acting as a friend. Either she has to let Rand know privately that she has to put up a tough front as a public figure or she should butt out of what she has very little knowledge of. Nynaeve earned the right by being there with him and for him. Egwene avoided Rand when they were together unless she wanted something from him or it concerned his public actions.

Finally, Egwene has obligations as the Amyrlin Seat. She's not going to let the DR enslave the White Tower just because he needs them. He tried that with Tuon and the Borderland armies, and it failed.
He did no such thing. Even if he had for the Seanchan, turnabout is fair play. They are the ones who approve of slavery after all. He did nothing like that for the Borderlands - he did threaten to destroy them, because they constituted a hostile army in a threatening position. You don't want to get blasted? Don't be any army, dumbasses! Armies are legitimate targets, especially outside their borders. There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that Rand want's anything from the Tower other than to be left alone and not interfered with or manipulated.

And why is the independence of the White Tower so important? Elayne coupled her declarations of independence with assertions of de facto dependence. Every other ruler or group involved with Rand has acquiesced to the need to submit themselves to the greater good. What makes the Tower so special? How are they different from the Sea Folk whom everyone castigates for making a bargain out of their exclusive ability to fix the drought? As I noted in a prior post, it is not like the Tower even has that sort of exclusive ability. The Asha'man and the unbound Wise Ones will be far more useful in the fighting to come, and they far outnumber the Tower. As for the guidance and respect issues, Egwene herself once upon a time acknowledged the superiority of the Wise Ones in building character and practicality and so forth. What does the Tower have that makes them so special, aside from a position of respect and prestige in a society that has largely collapsed and is entirely under the thumb of Rand, his allies or the Tower's enemies, and thus no longer requires their influence to follow Rand.

He needs a new tactic especially against one of the most formidible Amyrlin's in history, who is also notoriously stubborn in his presence.


The essential man for the salvation of the world has to adjust to an upstart who owes much of her formidability as well as her very position to his existence? Is WoT set in Opposite Land?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM 2558 Views
Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor? - 14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM 726 Views
It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go? - 14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM 805 Views
We all do that - 14/02/2010 08:09:51 PM 879 Views
You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done.... - 14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM 676 Views
Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake - 14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM 971 Views
I thought she DID say "This I Foretell?" - 14/02/2010 07:24:19 PM 790 Views
Yes she did. - 14/02/2010 07:34:43 PM 1027 Views
Take a sedative - 14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM 865 Views
somethings we can agree on! - 14/02/2010 08:12:05 PM 846 Views
None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping - 14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM 824 Views
Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed - 14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM 812 Views
If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after... - 14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM 863 Views
Not really - 14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM 746 Views
Re: Not really - 15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM 776 Views
better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions! - 15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM 874 Views
This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM 768 Views
actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM 762 Views
Re: actually it's about all of the main characters - 15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM 860 Views
Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM 894 Views
Re: Well said. - 15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM 729 Views
yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to - 16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM 672 Views
Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it? - 16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM 745 Views
how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 12:27:58 AM 663 Views
Re: how is that a good comparrison? - 18/02/2010 03:30:21 AM 1084 Views
watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM 872 Views
Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon - 16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM 825 Views
Alright enough. Will you read the books already? - 16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM 873 Views
Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph. - 16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM 787 Views
You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs. - 16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM 883 Views
The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM 657 Views
Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason - 16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM 761 Views
I'm going to agee with fionwe - 16/02/2010 01:07:37 PM 708 Views
Same old same old - 16/02/2010 02:01:12 PM 726 Views
that B*TCH! *NM* - 17/02/2010 03:10:30 AM 581 Views
Re: Same old same old - 17/02/2010 09:32:03 AM 880 Views
Yes, but Egwene's is pride - - 15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM 750 Views
I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM 768 Views
Re: I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none - 15/02/2010 10:39:25 PM 760 Views
I feel Galad could be up there, but we see so little of him - 16/02/2010 12:28:44 AM 768 Views
are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 01:57:29 AM 740 Views
Re: are you being serious? - 16/02/2010 06:55:16 AM 828 Views
Oh, I don't think so. - 16/02/2010 09:12:57 AM 729 Views
Re: This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve. - 22/02/2010 10:57:27 PM 799 Views
It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM 725 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM 949 Views
this is hilarious - 15/02/2010 12:45:22 PM 730 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour - 15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM 1006 Views
Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM* - 15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM 473 Views
Me. And I'm way smarter than you. - 15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM 826 Views
- 15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM 901 Views
Re: - 15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM 739 Views
Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM 704 Views
Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main - 16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM 769 Views
You need a re-read my friend - 16/02/2010 01:14:22 PM 786 Views
Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM 853 Views
Re: Sidious' problem in a nutshell. - 15/02/2010 03:14:55 PM 828 Views
I've never understood the fascination with Lanfear - 15/02/2010 05:52:27 PM 849 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM 770 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene - 14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM 723 Views
I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM 819 Views
Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then - 14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM 633 Views
I don't think so - 14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM 709 Views
Re: I don't think so - 15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM 792 Views
That's pretty much how I see it too - 15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM 703 Views
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM 928 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand - 14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM 822 Views
Cadsuane needs to spank her. - 15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM 789 Views
yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past - 15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM 760 Views
It would be a very amusing moment. - 15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM 713 Views
IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions - 15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM 717 Views
and a massive failure - 15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM 855 Views
What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower. - 15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM 637 Views
Actually that role is being played by Covril at the Stump *NM* - 15/02/2010 02:13:42 PM 542 Views
If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series - 15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM 684 Views
But that's the point - 15/02/2010 03:26:03 PM 757 Views
Not quite. - 15/02/2010 07:11:56 PM 758 Views
Actually, you can't compare the two. - 15/02/2010 12:04:19 PM 812 Views
No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM 857 Views
Re: No, Cannoli has the right of it here. - 16/02/2010 06:51:28 PM 814 Views
I actually think it will go the opposite way. - 16/02/2010 03:44:19 PM 767 Views

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