(I don't have the books just now, they're being shipped to my new address).
You've made some good points, and reminded me why I was willing to give Egwene more credit right after I read TGS. However, I would still like to see more of this from her: I definitely share the original poster's apprehensions about her meeting with Rand.
You've made some good points, and reminded me why I was willing to give Egwene more credit right after I read TGS. However, I would still like to see more of this from her: I definitely share the original poster's apprehensions about her meeting with Rand.
Well, others who haven't missed paragraphs showing Egwene as a sensible and stable person ridicule those worries precisely because the books make it clear that Egwene is the last person Rand needs to worry about. It has been made so clear that Egwene understands what Rand is going through that ignoring it and saying she'll go back to bickering with him as they did when they were kids is absurd.
Even in that paragraph, she judges her relationships in a very cold, professional way, which is prudent I guess but also alienates her from those around her.
No it does not. She was cold and professional because it was a professional issue. She cannot look at it as a matter of friendship or love.
Which is precisely why people like Siuan respect her so much and work so hard to keep her Amyrlin. From Siuan's PoV, we know that Egwene is more casual and friendly around Siuan. They are not just successful as mentor and student, but as friends. And Siuan respects the fact that Egwene cannot always treat her as a friend. She couldn't be a good leader if she did.
It is so immature and childish to expect a woman in Egwene's position to act cuddly and sweet when her subordinates disobey her. Its like a kid thinking their teacher hates them because the teacher punished them for their transgressions.
I do think that you're comparison with Rand & Semirhage is baseless, that scenario just wouldn't happen since you can't flee a Forsaken that easily.
Who said flee the Forsaken? Semirhage was shielded. What if they took her and Rand away from the scene before Rand came to and had a chance to speak to the sul'dam?
Rand would have gone ballistic. He'd have had a right to be angry, but he'd have mishandled it badly. He'd have yelled. He would have lost respect.
And I quoted counter-examples as well (eg with Nynaeve, who is a friend and mentor like Siuan is to Egwene).
Yes, I was wondering why you mentioned that, since Rand told her he's going to use her husband's death, and threatened her with the Choedan Kal!
And ultimately, Egwene has experienced a mere fraction (at best) of the stress and hardship that Rand has, so it's little surprise that his temper is more loosely held than hers.
She seems less damaged because she trained herself to overcome the damage. Or do you think two months as damane, when punishment involved being made to feel like your submerged in boiling water, is a walk in the park?
Rand has never been captured and mistreated for so long a time. He has never lost control over his ability for so long a time. His other issues make him have a worse time, but a lot of them are because unlike Egwene, he has refused to bend to the reality of his situation and make the best of it.
I still think that she should have really probed Siuan on why she was rescued (would again like to double check if she did in the books, but can't), because hearing about the Bloodknives would surely have convinced her that lying there unconscious was suicide. There's sufficient evidence to think that this might have actually been the fulfilment of the prophecy (dream?) regarding Gawyn deciding to kill or, or to save her life, in which case he has done the latter.
But we have no idea that Bloodknives were still there. they may have been killed by the Warders, for all we know. And her loyal Novices would have moved her anyway! Egwene is right that no matter how worried Siuan felt, she shouldn't have let that be the basis fo her decision to kidnap Egwene.
But if people judge Egwene more harshly than Rand, you can't forget that Rand has been through far, far worse than her, and faces far greater challenges.
So? Since when did it become okay to be an ass if you were under stress? Rand may face greater stresses, but her also has greater power at his command. Egwene would never have floundered about like Rand did.
Understand that I'm not saying Rand doesn't have reasons. I'm only saying that those reasons can serve to help us understand, but not excuse, his behavior.
I do tend to agree to some extent with some of Cannoli's points about how easy it was to influence and impress the tower AS.
Rand has had about as easy a time when he's tried to impress anyone. He doesn't try, most of the time, that's all.
If she can reshape them into an organisation not only of strength, but also wisdom and service to Randland, then I'll have more faith in her. As I said elsewhere, I think she's done some pretty good things (be it through luck or with the help of others, she still did them), but as a character her attitude irks me more than that of other characters.
She irks you because you're determined to be irked, and because you conveniently forget situations where she shows how sensible and mature she is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with her attitude. Rand needs to learn from her.
God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM
- 2559 Views
My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 07:58:01 AM
- 1077 Views
Re: My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 09:26:47 AM
- 885 Views
Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor?
14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM
- 726 Views
What? We are no longer allowed to make predictions of the coming books unless they're pro-Egwene?
14/02/2010 02:22:10 PM
- 844 Views
a theory vs. mindlessly attacking a character because you don't like them?
14/02/2010 07:00:27 PM
- 823 Views
It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go?
14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM
- 806 Views
Is Egwene going to do what Elayne did when she met Rand after tearing down his banners?
15/02/2010 11:25:27 AM
- 985 Views
You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done....
14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM
- 677 Views
Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake
14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM
- 972 Views
No way these are fake... she's not BA and she she says she's having a Foretelling
14/02/2010 08:24:29 PM
- 839 Views
Good point. And the "rent in fire and blood" part is almost certain as well.
16/02/2010 05:13:29 PM
- 634 Views
Take a sedative
14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM
- 866 Views
None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM
- 825 Views
Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed
14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM
- 812 Views
If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after...
14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM
- 864 Views
Not really
14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM
- 747 Views
Re: Not really
15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM
- 777 Views
better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions!
15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM
- 874 Views
This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve.
15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM
- 768 Views
actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM
- 762 Views
Re: actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM
- 860 Views
Well said.
15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM
- 894 Views
Re: Well said.
15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM
- 730 Views
yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to
16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM
- 673 Views
Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it?
16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM
- 745 Views
watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM
- 873 Views
Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM
- 826 Views
Alright enough. Will you read the books already?
16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM
- 873 Views
Fair points, & I somehow forgot that paragraph.
16/02/2010 05:34:12 PM
- 788 Views
You've forgotten a lot of paragraphs.
16/02/2010 07:58:32 PM
- 884 Views
The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM
- 657 Views
Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM
- 762 Views
Yes, but Egwene's is pride -
15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM
- 750 Views
I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none
15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM
- 769 Views
Re: None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
15/02/2010 05:08:49 AM
- 793 Views
It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM
- 725 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
- 950 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM
- 833 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
- 1006 Views
Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM*
15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM
- 473 Views
Me. And I'm way smarter than you.
15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM
- 826 Views
15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM
- 901 Views
Re:
15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM
- 740 Views
Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM
- 704 Views
Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM
- 769 Views
Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:48:51 PM
- 895 Views
Sidious' problem in a nutshell.
15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM
- 853 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM
- 770 Views
Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM
- 724 Views
I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM
- 819 Views
Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM
- 633 Views
I don't think so
14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM
- 710 Views
Re: I don't think so
15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM
- 793 Views
That's pretty much how I see it too
15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM
- 703 Views
I understood little sister to be a mild insult, Moiraine being so young and weak in the OP *NM*
16/02/2010 08:25:55 PM
- 573 Views
maybe a touch patronizing? *NM*
17/02/2010 12:51:25 PM
- 438 Views
Appears to be, but his thought process implies it's not as simple as him merely looking down on her. *NM*
17/02/2010 05:07:19 PM
- 428 Views
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM
- 928 Views
Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM
- 823 Views
Cadsuane needs to spank her.
15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM
- 790 Views
yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past
15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM
- 760 Views
It would be a very amusing moment.
15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM
- 713 Views
IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions
15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM
- 717 Views
and a massive failure
15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM
- 856 Views
What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower.
15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM
- 638 Views
If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series
15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM
- 685 Views
Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
15/02/2010 09:23:47 PM
- 668 Views
When has she ever actually done that? Rand thinks she will, but so far she's done nothing like it!
16/02/2010 02:08:23 AM
- 808 Views
I meant that EVERYONE is bargaining, posturing, etc.
16/02/2010 02:54:29 AM
- 721 Views
Well miscommunication is one of the major themes of the series
16/02/2010 01:17:25 PM
- 704 Views
the most idiotic theme IMO
16/02/2010 03:27:26 PM
- 781 Views
I don't know if the theme itself is idoitic, but I would totally agree that it's gone nowhere!
17/02/2010 03:16:30 AM
- 678 Views
Re: Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
18/02/2010 01:19:00 AM
- 720 Views
No, Cannoli has the right of it here.
16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM
- 857 Views
Well, all those beatings were in private
16/02/2010 07:54:00 PM
- 762 Views
That was the point of the scene in front of the Sitters during the banquet. *NM*
23/02/2010 06:58:50 PM
- 534 Views
Oh the one where Elaida tried to have her way with Egwene while the Sitters looked away? *NM*
23/02/2010 10:12:04 PM
- 489 Views
Yes. Elaida wanted Egwene to be cowed in front of her into obedience, which would erode her support
23/02/2010 10:18:03 PM
- 788 Views