Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
Egwene has been the most mature of the Emonds Fielders since the beginning. Since the start of the series she's openly stated that she's wanted to become an Aes Sedai. Nynaeve, Mat, Rand and Perrin all denied and resented their destinies for the greater part of the series. How can you say that everyone has matured except Egwene? If anything, the others are finally starting to behave like adults.
That's a completely unfair assertion. Egwene was offered a life of power, decadence and greatness as an AS. Rand was offered a life where he would kill millions of people, the world would lie upon his shoulders, and he would eventually go insane and kill his loved ones to boot. Hardly a fair comparison. Egwene seems immature because she doesn't seem to realise the price that her actions demand until after she acts. She only seems to be aware of how badly she could mess things up in a very vague way.
There are multiple quotes in the series showing that Rand doesn't want to trust Egwene. He's paranoid by nature.
Actually, in EotW, he is anything but paranoid. However, his situation has forced him to carefully consider who is friend or foe. Even in TGS at his darkest hour he still keeps Nynaeve and Min close, he isn't totally gone. After what he has been through, I'd consider that to be a miraculous level of trust.
Egwene on the other hand openly announces her affiliation and allegiance to the WO and WT, and Rand has seen how these groups force their members to think alike. He clearly holds hope that Egwene still supports him, but he is realistic - he understandably wants her to show him some support before he trusts her fully. That only makes sense.
When she arrived to warn him about the Aes Sedai trying to capture him, he laughs at her and ignores her warning, only to be captured a week later and tortured. By TGS, everyone is afraid of Rand, even his own father. And don't forget... he is insane due to some effect of the taint, and other issues.
And yet even then, in his darkest hour, he pulls back from truly destructive actions and knows what is right. He is the golden standard because his actions have always been made with the best of intentions, except for the last half of TGS (so 1/24th, or ~4% of the series) where as you said, he wasn't himself anyway. Moiraine, Nynaeve and even Cadsuane have come to respect his decision making, if not his behaviour.
I think if you put Egwene in Rand's position, the world would have been destroyed by now.
Almost all the Emond's Fielders treat Rand the same as they used to. Perrin has nothing to say because he's too dimwitted, but even he has commented. Mat is childish with no real purpose in life unless someone gives it to him, and he too will say something of use. Nynaeve and Egwene are the only two who tell Rand exactly what they think, with Nynaeve doing exactly that in TGS despite his homicidal tendencies. Egwene's certainly going to give him a run for his money when they finally meet. I don't know why you find this surprising or irritating.
As I said, none of them (with the exception of Perrin, who is probably the character who is LEAST dim-witted after Rand - slow but hardly dim) have actually told him anything contrary to his beliefs. He admitted himself that he agreed with Nynaeve's judgement of his actions, and while I respect her for stating her position, his moral compass has been pretty accurate except when it came to the AS at Dumai's Wells, whom I seem to recall he wanted to execute (Perrin stood against him for this; even that fight, however was partly staged so Rand could send him away without revealing his purpose). I didn't agree with Rand in that one scenario, but after what was done to him by those women, I can certainly empathise with him.
Finally, Egwene has obligations as the Amyrlin Seat. She's not going to let the DR enslave the White Tower just because he needs them. He tried that with Tuon and the Borderland armies, and it failed. He needs a new tactic especially against one of the most formidible Amyrlin's in history, who is also notoriously stubborn in his presence.
Come on, Rand would hardly enslave them, especially after his epiphany in TGS. However, if Egwene holds back the support of the Tower to the one man who can save the entire world, then I'd certainly wonder where her moral compass pointed. She might have good intentions, but she needs to realise that the best way to protect her people is to COOPERATE with the DR, not attack him.
My hope for now is that Rand is wise enough (and I think after TGS he is) to allow Egwene to have a rant against him for an hour or two, then after she has cooled down, just say "yes, I'm sorry" to appease her and get things done. I'm certain that if one of them has to take the moral high ground and take a position of humility in order to diffuse the DR/WT tension, it will be Rand, not Egwene.
God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:02:20 AM
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My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 07:58:01 AM
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Re: My sentiments exactly, though I think I'm a little more hopeful than you are.
14/02/2010 09:26:47 AM
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Just like Elayne treated him so well when she kicked him out of Andor?
14/02/2010 01:35:32 PM
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What? We are no longer allowed to make predictions of the coming books unless they're pro-Egwene?
14/02/2010 02:22:10 PM
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a theory vs. mindlessly attacking a character because you don't like them?
14/02/2010 07:00:27 PM
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It IS kind of ridiculous... but how do YOU think a meeting will go?
14/02/2010 07:20:08 PM
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Is Egwene going to do what Elayne did when she met Rand after tearing down his banners?
15/02/2010 11:25:27 AM
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You just KNOW that rather than compliment all the good he's done....
14/02/2010 03:06:09 PM
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Personally, I'm rooting for Elaida's Foretelling to be fake
14/02/2010 06:56:41 PM
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No way these are fake... she's not BA and she she says she's having a Foretelling
14/02/2010 08:24:29 PM
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Good point. And the "rent in fire and blood" part is almost certain as well.
16/02/2010 05:13:29 PM
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Take a sedative
14/02/2010 07:52:32 PM
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None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
14/02/2010 09:01:35 PM
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Right cause Nynaeve is always going around telling people how much Mat's changed
14/02/2010 09:27:02 PM
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If you'll recall what Mat did 5 minutes after...
14/02/2010 11:06:41 PM
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Not really
14/02/2010 11:34:49 PM
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Re: Not really
15/02/2010 03:32:06 PM
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better than Nynaeve who just lies to herself in order to justify her actions!
15/02/2010 05:53:17 PM
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This is about Egwene, not Nynaeve.
15/02/2010 06:09:46 PM
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actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:13:27 PM
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Re: actually it's about all of the main characters
15/02/2010 06:39:25 PM
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Well said.
15/02/2010 07:20:47 PM
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Re: Well said.
15/02/2010 07:43:08 PM
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yet even Siuan seems to understand and accept Egwene's response ... odd that you can hold her to
16/02/2010 01:55:35 AM
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Oh, so Elaida's treatment of Sheremin is ok because Sheremin accepted it?
16/02/2010 06:49:53 AM
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watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 01:51:09 AM
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Re: watch out that you don't fall when you jump on a bandwagon
16/02/2010 07:04:08 AM
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Alright enough. Will you read the books already?
16/02/2010 08:03:39 AM
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The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 01:34:30 AM
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Re: The point is people hold Egwene to a different standard for some reason
16/02/2010 07:08:13 AM
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Yes, but Egwene's is pride -
15/02/2010 07:04:25 PM
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I think Nyn has had the best character development, bar none
15/02/2010 08:52:54 PM
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Re: None of the Emond's Fielders suck up to him. There's difference between hostile and 1-upping
15/02/2010 05:08:49 AM
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It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 06:53:30 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 08:41:02 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:31:26 PM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 11:57:24 AM
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Who says Egwene didn't have a destiny? *NM*
15/02/2010 12:46:10 PM
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Me. And I'm way smarter than you.
15/02/2010 01:04:48 PM
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15/02/2010 02:12:26 PM
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Re:
15/02/2010 10:40:39 PM
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Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 01:32:45 AM
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Re: Min's viewing of the Darkness v. fireflies very obviously shows that all the main
16/02/2010 07:09:52 AM
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Re: It amazes me that you use Rand as the gold standard for good behaviour
15/02/2010 03:48:51 PM
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Sidious' problem in a nutshell.
15/02/2010 11:27:12 AM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 07:56:23 PM
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Re: God I am so pissed off at Future Egwene
14/02/2010 08:55:58 PM
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I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 08:59:26 PM
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Re: I'd venture the guess that it's what the called the Novices back then
14/02/2010 09:24:23 PM
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I don't think so
14/02/2010 09:30:41 PM
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Re: I don't think so
15/02/2010 03:45:52 PM
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That's pretty much how I see it too
15/02/2010 05:54:14 PM
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I understood little sister to be a mild insult, Moiraine being so young and weak in the OP *NM*
16/02/2010 08:25:55 PM
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maybe a touch patronizing? *NM*
17/02/2010 12:51:25 PM
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Appears to be, but his thought process implies it's not as simple as him merely looking down on her. *NM*
17/02/2010 05:07:19 PM
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 08:05:40 PM
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Re: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it won't be flattering for Rand
14/02/2010 11:55:40 PM
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Cadsuane needs to spank her.
15/02/2010 01:31:49 AM
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yeah, that's worked so well on her in the past
15/02/2010 01:48:05 AM
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It would be a very amusing moment.
15/02/2010 03:01:37 AM
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IMO it would merely be a hypocritical moment of massive proportions
15/02/2010 04:45:27 AM
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and a massive failure
15/02/2010 06:57:18 AM
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What Egwene needs is to be shown that her actions could harm the tower.
15/02/2010 08:46:30 AM
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If you hate arrogance, you must hate all the main characters in the series
15/02/2010 03:21:48 PM
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Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
15/02/2010 09:23:47 PM
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When has she ever actually done that? Rand thinks she will, but so far she's done nothing like it!
16/02/2010 02:08:23 AM
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I meant that EVERYONE is bargaining, posturing, etc.
16/02/2010 02:54:29 AM
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Well miscommunication is one of the major themes of the series
16/02/2010 01:17:25 PM
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the most idiotic theme IMO
16/02/2010 03:27:26 PM
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I don't know if the theme itself is idoitic, but I would totally agree that it's gone nowhere!
17/02/2010 03:16:30 AM
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Re: Everyone else is shown to be a bit small minded. Egwene is implied to be Strong And Wise
18/02/2010 01:19:00 AM
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No, Cannoli has the right of it here.
16/02/2010 06:22:39 PM
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Well, all those beatings were in private
16/02/2010 07:54:00 PM
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That was the point of the scene in front of the Sitters during the banquet. *NM*
23/02/2010 06:58:50 PM
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Oh the one where Elaida tried to have her way with Egwene while the Sitters looked away? *NM*
23/02/2010 10:12:04 PM
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Yes. Elaida wanted Egwene to be cowed in front of her into obedience, which would erode her support
23/02/2010 10:18:03 PM
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