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Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad Send a noteboard - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
When you get down to the meat of Dance, not much actually happens:

Victarion is heading toward Mereen....and is still heading there.

Mereen is beset by enemies, and is still beset.

The North is divided and at war, and is still at war.

Dorne is plotting, and are still plotting

Tyrion is trying to reach Mereen, and is still trying.

etc, etc.

The lack of climax of the Meereenese knot, in my opinion, was probably the biggest disappointment in this book.


I think the fundamental flaw of the book is that it's a story without a climax whatsoever. He spends hundreds and hundreds of pages building up to two major confrontations, the battle for Winterfell and the battle for Meereen, and then cuts off before we can even see them. I'm sorry, but that's not gonna cut it. I can accept lots of atmosphere and buildup if there's a payoff for it down the line, but this time there was no such payoff (or rather, the payoff was deferred until the next book). If the problem was that he didn't have enough room to fit the climax in, then he should have gone back and trimmed/condensed the previous chapters until there was enough room. In fact I feel Martin focused too many chapters on the big three, Dany's and Tyrion's especially could have been condensed. Sure, we may have lost some interesting or atmospheric chapters in the process, but all of that would have been in service of a much more important goal.

Don't get me wrong, there are some things that I loved in this book. But much of it I merely tolerated because I thought it was at least building toward something, which turned out to be wishful thinking. If George had included at least one of the climaxes he'd been building up toward, then I think this would have been considered a truly great book. As it stands, it's merely "ok".

In my opinion, it becomes rather painfully obvious that the characters Martin was trying to serve by filling that gap (Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, Dorne, the Iron Islands, etc) simply weren't worthy of it and the price he paid by slowing Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya down was too high.


I agree, especially in this book Dany, Jon and Tyrion plotlines have been dragged out to some extent. The book probably would have been better served if they didn't take up 50% of the chapters, especially since both Dany's and Tyrion's arc are in a state of limbo.



I, too, was hoping that the Mereneese knot would lead to a powerful confrontation, maybe Tyrion, Dany and Quentyn in the same room, while the ironborn fleet arrives. THAT would have been a climax.
Or that all of the traveling would at least deliver us one of the two battles you named. But no, we have to wait a few more years.

I enjoyed reading the book a lot, but considering the sum of what we got compared to what we're still waiting for, I now feel a little empty inside.
*MySmiley*

You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6150 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1696 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 920 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 1917 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 1889 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 1585 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1888 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 1705 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 816 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 1742 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2011 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 1835 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1701 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1703 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 1708 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 1726 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 974 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 1901 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 1844 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 1684 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 1658 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1614 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 1942 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 903 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 1772 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 1705 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1616 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 1654 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1654 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1010 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 960 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 1944 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 1859 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1545 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1665 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1513 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1665 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1617 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1858 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1854 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1688 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1761 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1601 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1734 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1779 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1693 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1659 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2043 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 1970 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 1774 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1622 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1548 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1781 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1788 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1601 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1648 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1685 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 903 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1788 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1720 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 1769 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 1756 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1641 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1824 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1615 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1830 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1672 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1611 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1645 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1698 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1731 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1668 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1719 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1679 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1711 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 1737 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1827 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1588 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1591 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 890 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1732 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1899 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 1992 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1787 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 887 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1521 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1696 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1605 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1670 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1650 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1692 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 794 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1650 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1741 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1680 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1744 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1634 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1743 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1817 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1638 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1687 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1615 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 887 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1632 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1619 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1700 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1542 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1728 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1601 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1612 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1616 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1605 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1681 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1631 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1615 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1706 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1575 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1486 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1589 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1593 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1647 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1584 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1581 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1477 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1554 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1640 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1611 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1670 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 922 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1462 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 962 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1796 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1762 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1696 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1611 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1697 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1606 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1526 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1710 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1706 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1699 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1617 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1715 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 1917 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1625 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1659 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1560 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1656 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1632 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1638 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1514 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 878 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1534 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 1928 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1724 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1638 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1654 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1844 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1760 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1769 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1559 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1542 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2167 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 1904 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1619 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1486 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1667 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1622 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1904 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1742 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1729 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1796 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1713 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1722 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1652 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1634 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1561 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1607 Views

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