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How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim Send a noteboard - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM
ἆρα τὸ ὅσιον ὅτι ὅσιόν ἐστιν φιλεῖται ὑπὸ τῶν θεῶν, ἢ ὅτι φιλεῖται ὅσιόν ἐστιν;

"Is the good loved by the goods because it is good, or is it good because it is loved by the gods?" (Plato, Euthyphro, 10a)

If the former, morality is independent of the gods. If the latter, morality is arbitrary – the gods might have chosen any standards imaginable to endorse.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6698 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2246 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1215 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2440 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2404 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2114 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2445 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2329 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2216 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1094 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2253 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2546 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2326 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2225 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2224 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2273 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2243 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1282 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1287 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2426 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2373 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1152 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2230 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2199 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2143 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2458 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1214 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2325 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2607 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2205 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2145 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2194 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2223 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1292 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1251 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2442 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2391 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2027 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2185 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2004 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2175 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2153 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2391 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2351 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2201 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2270 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2109 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2265 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2307 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2226 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2151 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2580 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2479 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2321 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2123 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2076 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2310 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2304 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2112 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2160 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2207 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1186 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2371 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2300 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2227 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2305 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2287 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2168 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2399 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2165 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2389 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2272 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2124 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2169 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2359 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2273 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2172 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2355 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2216 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2207 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2230 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2217 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2302 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2373 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2150 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2134 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1175 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2258 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2219 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2445 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2569 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2358 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1169 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2019 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2326 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2172 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2205 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2167 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2180 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2150 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2223 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1081 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2237 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1141 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2156 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2213 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2206 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2252 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2130 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2299 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2278 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2325 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2153 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2209 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2108 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1173 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2148 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 2022 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2133 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2169 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2068 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2236 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2124 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2121 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2120 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2102 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2233 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2138 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2138 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2196 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2079 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1991 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 2024 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2153 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2185 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2144 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2094 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2170 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2071 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2095 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1965 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2031 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2167 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2115 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2219 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1215 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2007 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1288 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2314 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2248 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2197 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2189 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2231 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2093 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2264 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2017 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2237 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2253 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2223 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2091 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2229 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2454 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2119 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2213 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2059 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2130 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2153 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2159 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2030 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1156 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2043 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2449 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2227 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2166 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2156 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2365 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2307 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2344 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2101 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2089 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2680 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2574 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2167 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2025 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2156 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2141 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2416 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2286 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2235 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2301 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2234 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2263 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2337 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2127 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2172 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2093 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2138 Views
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