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Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM
I'm frequently amused by Cannoli's posts, moralizing about genre fiction, because not only are the books fictitious tales (often written without much care), but they're also set in fictitious worlds where his concepts of morality and ethics may not hold water.

Specifically, if there truly IS a "God of Many Faces" in Martin's world, then Arya's training is not only moral, but highly so. She has taken, in fact, the most moral path of all by serving a god selflessly to implement the will of that god on earth.

The interesting thing is that it seems that the gods of Westeros are the ones that don't exist. No one has ever benefited from worshiping the "Seven" or even the Drowned God. By contrast, the "Old Gods" of the North seem to have actual power, as does R'hllor, the Red God.

Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world, and how does that affect the morality that underpins it?


Sometimes I think all of them are... Sometimes none...
But if the gods are real, the Seven seems are the least real.
There is only one moment I thought may be they were, when they helped Davos.
Chii? Chiiii!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6692 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2238 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1212 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2434 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2395 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2110 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2438 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2322 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2210 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1093 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2248 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2538 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2319 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2218 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2218 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2269 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2236 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1279 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1284 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2419 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2363 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1149 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2222 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2190 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2137 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2452 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1211 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2320 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2597 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2198 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2137 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2190 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2215 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1291 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1248 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2433 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2383 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2019 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2178 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1997 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2169 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2145 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2383 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2342 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2195 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2267 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2103 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2257 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2302 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2218 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2142 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2574 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2471 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2314 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2122 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2069 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2300 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2298 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2106 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2153 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2199 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1183 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2362 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2292 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2222 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2298 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2280 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2162 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2394 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2156 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2381 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2267 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2115 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2163 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2351 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2265 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2167 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2348 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2209 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2202 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2221 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2209 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2294 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2364 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2141 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2125 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1172 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2251 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2210 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2437 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2566 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2349 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1166 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2017 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2317 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2165 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2200 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2158 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2178 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2144 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2215 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1079 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2228 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1139 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2148 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2212 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2198 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2247 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2123 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2290 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2268 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2318 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2143 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2201 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2102 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1169 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2143 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 2014 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2122 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2159 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2059 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2229 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2117 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2108 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2113 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2093 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2225 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2129 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2136 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2191 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2069 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1985 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 2017 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2147 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2179 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2138 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2088 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2162 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2068 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2089 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1962 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2025 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2160 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2107 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2213 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1213 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1996 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1285 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2305 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2240 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2190 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2180 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2223 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2086 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2255 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2012 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2231 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2247 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2221 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2085 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2221 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2446 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2113 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2211 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2054 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2124 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2145 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2154 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2024 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1155 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2037 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2442 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2219 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2162 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2153 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2357 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2298 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2338 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2093 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2081 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2672 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2568 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2159 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2018 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2146 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2133 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2407 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2281 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2229 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2296 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2227 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2255 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2329 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2121 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2166 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2086 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2131 Views
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