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Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM
I'm frequently amused by Cannoli's posts, moralizing about genre fiction, because not only are the books fictitious tales (often written without much care), but they're also set in fictitious worlds where his concepts of morality and ethics may not hold water.

Specifically, if there truly IS a "God of Many Faces" in Martin's world, then Arya's training is not only moral, but highly so. She has taken, in fact, the most moral path of all by serving a god selflessly to implement the will of that god on earth.

The interesting thing is that it seems that the gods of Westeros are the ones that don't exist. No one has ever benefited from worshiping the "Seven" or even the Drowned God. By contrast, the "Old Gods" of the North seem to have actual power, as does R'hllor, the Red God.

Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world, and how does that affect the morality that underpins it?


Sometimes I think all of them are... Sometimes none...
But if the gods are real, the Seven seems are the least real.
There is only one moment I thought may be they were, when they helped Davos.
Chii? Chiiii!
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread Legolas - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6720 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. ironclad - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2270 Views
I have it! *NM* fionwe1987 - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1231 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2462 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* ironclad - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2431 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. Tom - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2143 Views
It'll be tight. Werthead - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2468 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised! Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM 2350 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2238 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1110 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding Roland00 - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2270 Views
Hero of the book? Werthead - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2570 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2354 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2248 Views
Re: Hero of the book? ClubCaved - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2249 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2304 Views
That's what I thought too. Jessie - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2262 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* Urza - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1295 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM 1300 Views
Asshole of the book? ironclad - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2444 Views
Agreed. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2398 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM* RandAllThor - 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM 1175 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2253 Views
Seriously... Urza - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2225 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark Cannoli - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2166 Views
Idiot of the book. Werthead - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2478 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1227 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2346 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking. Libby - 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM 2636 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2226 Views
She thinks both Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2169 Views
So... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2219 Views
No, it's him. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2257 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* Dark Knight - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1307 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* ironclad - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1266 Views
Great Ending ClubCaved - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2476 Views
Really? ironclad - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2410 Views
Re: Really? Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2057 Views
Re: Great Ending samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2202 Views
YES! Larry - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2029 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Stephen - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2199 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply Zaphod - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2178 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) aragornital - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2414 Views
Probably not. Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2376 Views
Re: Probably not. aragornital - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2230 Views
I think the two are mixed up. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2304 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2131 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... ironclad - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2291 Views
They didn't. Werthead - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2331 Views
I see ironclad - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2248 Views
Didn't Jon just announced Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2175 Views
Something I totally missed first time through Werthead - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2606 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Cannoli - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2500 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought A Deathwatch Guard - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2344 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through Jessie - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2146 Views
Well that brings new meaning Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2107 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2334 Views
Agreed ironclad - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2328 Views
There's another... fionwe1987 - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2136 Views
There's that... Legolas - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2186 Views
It's worse than that... fionwe1987 - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2232 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* Roland00 - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1201 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth. Libby - 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM 2388 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Variant - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2321 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) Zaphod - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2246 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed. Libby - 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM 2332 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said ironclad - 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM 2307 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2201 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks Tom - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2417 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. Werthead - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2187 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. Tom - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2417 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. everynametaken - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2320 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. Tom - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2147 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. Zach - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2196 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. heartbreak - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2421 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2295 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? Legolas - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2195 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM 2376 Views
Yeah, I agree. Stephen - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2237 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2230 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM 2255 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* samgreenaway - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2239 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. Libby - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2346 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts Larry - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2403 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! ironclad - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2176 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2158 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* Legolas - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1190 Views
I think you let him off too easily. Tom - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2283 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened Larry - 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM 2248 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) Libby - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2476 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... Zach - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2606 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... ironclad - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2382 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* aragornital - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1183 Views
Davos is probably my favourite Stephen - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2058 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Variant - 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM 2350 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that. Timthetrolloc - 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM 2196 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet Stephen - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2226 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. Legolas - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2193 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague Urza - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2212 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... Legolas - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2173 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? ironclad - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2250 Views
That could be it. *NM* Stephen - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1099 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones DomA - 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM 2266 Views
That's how I read it as well. Six trebuchets opening up. *NM* Michael - 11/08/2011 12:19:09 PM 1160 Views
Stannis ironclad - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2187 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed Tom - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2241 Views
I highly doubt he's dead A Deathwatch Guard - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2228 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? Cannoli - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2271 Views
Yeah... Urza - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2154 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 2323 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Libby - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2319 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. Werthead - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2348 Views
Alternatively.. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2176 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? Tom - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2238 Views
None of them. Werthead - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2131 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* Tom - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1190 Views
Opinion Werthead - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2174 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant. Tom - 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM 2045 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. fionwe1987 - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2155 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? Tom - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2192 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2093 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2255 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... fionwe1987 - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2156 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. Tom - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2150 Views
Morality stems from god? A Deathwatch Guard - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2145 Views
Of course it does Tom - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2126 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. Tom - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2256 Views
Perhaps... A Deathwatch Guard - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2164 Views
Its simple... Urza - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2167 Views
I disagree... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2224 Views
Bullshit. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2104 Views
Re: Bullshit. fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 2016 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though. Werthead - 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM 2045 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them A Deathwatch Guard - 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM 2183 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world. Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM 2212 Views
Some thoughts... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2173 Views
It's not an objective morality. Tom - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2121 Views
Its not that simple... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2193 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2101 Views
Well... fionwe1987 - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2115 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? Tim - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1993 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? aragornital - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2065 Views
Whats the best new POV Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2185 Views
Barristan Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2136 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2247 Views
Agreed. *NM* Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1233 Views
thirded. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2027 Views
Absolutely *NM* ironclad - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1308 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2338 Views
A bit. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2286 Views
Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2217 Views
Re: Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2221 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything Roland00 - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2253 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything DomA - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2111 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face Roland00 - 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM 2292 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything aragornital - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2044 Views
Re: DomA - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2259 Views
I like your theory. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2278 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Legolas - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2250 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. Roland00 - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2114 Views
Eh? Elaine - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2255 Views
This is complicated. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2484 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? Tom - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2148 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people Roland00 - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2246 Views
Yup. Werthead - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2082 Views
Also... fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2157 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out Elaine - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2174 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... aragornital - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2183 Views
Allow me Elaine - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2057 Views
thanks *NM* aragornital - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1166 Views
I thought this was pretty clear HousealThor - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2070 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2479 Views
Interesting idea. Werthead - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2248 Views
Re: Interesting idea. Jessie - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2193 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Roland00 - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2187 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? Werthead - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2390 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? DomA - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2336 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread jwk - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2366 Views
Okay. I suck. jwk - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2128 Views
Let me rephrase that... jwk - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2116 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. Kotagg - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2704 Views
Hmm ironclad - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2598 Views
you are correct Jim - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2193 Views
Yup. Werthead - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2046 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... fionwe1987 - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2186 Views
I'm uncertain about that Larry - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2166 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. Werthead - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2448 Views
Where did he say that? fionwe1987 - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2303 Views
In interviews Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2262 Views
A little thought about Jon... aragornital - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2329 Views
Excellent point. Werthead - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2264 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... The Doctor - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2281 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that ironclad - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2358 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed. Libby - 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM 2149 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? Chas - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2199 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? Werthead - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2120 Views
Jon? Sir Tybalt - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2164 Views
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