The point is that, when everything is completely subjective, any morality works just fine. Yes, I know that people get killed because of religion. Right now a lot of Muslims seem to be into the idea of blowing themselves and others up for their religion. However, the simple fact is that the vast majority of Muslims believe this is wrong, just as the vast majority of Christians, etc.
Yes, any morality can work just fine, so long as society thinks it is okay. Take the case of terrorists who blow themselves up. You're right, a vast majority of Muslims think this is wrong. But does the strength of that moral lie in the fact that it stems from the Quran, or because a vast majority think it is wrong? How many of those Muslims who completely reject terrorism are devout followers who accept every word of the Quran and live by it? How many say so out of simple, and completely acceptable, self interest, seeing that being tarnished as the religion of terrorism has done Islam and its followers no favors, politically or economically? How many who support terrorism attribute God and his word as their inspiration, and how many who repudiate it draw inspiration from reason, logic and humanism?
On the other hand, atheist systems have killed millions and millions of people. Stalin killed at least 20 million, Mao probably killed 60 million, and Pol Pot only killed about 2 million but it was 25% of his country's population. This was a subjective morality.
But the question is, would religious belief have changed this? It is not like militant atheism drove these people to commit their atrocities. I'm unsure if any causal relationship can be established between the atheism of these systems and the extent of their crimes against humanity.
On the flip side, religion certainly doesn't seem to stop crime. Look at Imperialism. The absolute number of deaths may not match those you listed above, at least not at any one single point, but the cost in terms of economic hardship, cultural and political oppression is still very great. And a lot of it was done in the name of spreading religion and the associated "superior" culture, or at least couched in these terms.
Look too at the Partition of India, with the millions displaced, and about a million dead. The legacy of that still continues.
As many have noted, belief in "progress" or "secularism" has not improved the way that people treat each other.
People may note all they want, but actual research suggests otherwise. There is a direct correlation between crime rates, tolerance, etc. and secularism.
The absolute subjectivity of morality plays a part in this. I realize that, if there actually ISN'T a God, then the morality imposed by religion is also subjective. However, if there IS a God, then it is objective, not subjective. And THAT is the point of what I've been asking.
That doesn't make much sense, though. If, tomorrow, it is proved that, for the sake of this discussion, Allah is real, and he does condone terrorism, does this suddenly make terrorism moral? Should India, Israel, the US and Europe accept that Jihad against "infidels" is alright? Or if the Christian God is real, and he does disapprove of homosexuality, should all the gains in gay rights be reversed? Or if he doesn't mind, will those who worked against gay rights, sometimes violently, out of a genuine belief that they were doing God's work, be consigned to Hell?
A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.
A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM
6692 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough?
- 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM
2434 Views
It'll be tight.
- 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2438 Views
What does "resurrection-as-PWWP Jon" mean? Got it - Prince Who Was Promised!
- 18/08/2011 08:59:44 PM
2322 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible
- 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM
2210 Views
Hero of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM
2538 Views
Barristan should be renamed as Ser Grandfather, you do not mess with Ser Grandfather *NM*
- 26/07/2011 03:32:09 AM
1284 Views
Asshole of the book?
- 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM
2419 Views
Agreed.
- 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM
2363 Views
Seconded. He'd probably make my short list of Assholes of the Series to date. *NM*
- 12/07/2011 11:25:04 PM
1149 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark
- 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM
2137 Views
Idiot of the book.
- 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM
2452 Views
I think readers are being too hard on Quentyn, If anything I think Doran derserves more mocking.
- 17/07/2011 01:09:35 AM
2597 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM*
- 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM
1291 Views
YES!
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1997 Views
- 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM
1997 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler)
- 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM
2383 Views
Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM
2342 Views
Re: Probably not.
- 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM
2195 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned...
- 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM
2257 Views
Something I totally missed first time through
- 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM
2574 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters...
- 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM
2300 Views
GRRM completely shit the bed on Jon's arc within this book. That's the truth.
- 16/07/2011 12:51:08 AM
2362 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers)
- 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM
2292 Views
Personally, I felt 'A Feast for Crows' was not only better written but more condensed.
- 17/07/2011 11:15:58 AM
2298 Views
Summed up like that there is no way to disagree with what you said
- 17/07/2011 11:33:01 AM
2280 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks
- 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM
2394 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line.
- 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM
2156 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers.
- 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM
2381 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series.
- 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM
2267 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski.
- 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM
2352 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion...
- 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM
2265 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM
2167 Views
Re: And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading?
- 18/07/2011 02:17:41 AM
2348 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2
- 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM
2202 Views
No doubt, much like readers would've been more forgiving of aFfC if it'd been two years after SoS.
- 26/07/2011 11:28:43 PM
2221 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe*
- 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM
2209 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2364 Views
- 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM
2364 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here!
- 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM
2141 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too.
- 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM
2125 Views
I think you let him off too easily.
- 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM
2251 Views
It might be that I expected even more of a longeur than what happened
- 20/07/2011 05:24:50 PM
2210 Views
Am I the only one who really likes...
- 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM
2349 Views
I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 01:15:33 AM
2317 Views
Re: I have to disagree in regards to Penny, she's a plot device and an annoying one at that.
- 21/07/2011 09:33:00 AM
2165 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet
- 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM
2201 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too.
- 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM
2158 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague
- 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM
2178 Views
It's not six bodies, it's six trebuchets throwing corpses instead of stones
- 27/07/2011 01:03:51 AM
2228 Views
Stannis
- 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM
2148 Views
I highly doubt he's dead
- 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM
2198 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne?
- 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM
2247 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control
- 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
2290 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up.
- 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM
2268 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world?
- 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM
2201 Views
None of them.
- 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM
2102 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM*
- 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM
1169 Views
Opinion
- 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM
2143 Views
Regardless of whether or not they actually get involved, their existence (or not) is signficant.
- 23/07/2011 02:17:48 AM
2014 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic.
- 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM
2122 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this?
- 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM
2159 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2059 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods...
- 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM
2059 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that.
- 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM
2229 Views
Morality stems from god?
- 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM
2113 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly.
- 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM
2225 Views
Perhaps...
- 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM
2129 Views
Its simple...
- 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM
2136 Views
I disagree...
- 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM
2191 Views
Bullshit.
- 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM
2069 Views
The Seven probably has more power and influence than any other religion though.
- 25/07/2011 07:51:59 PM
2017 Views
In Westeros, but I always got the feeling the Free Cities and other places didn't much care for them
- 26/07/2011 10:53:45 PM
2147 Views
Westeros is the biggest coherent civilisation in the ASoIaF world.
- 27/07/2011 12:56:21 AM
2180 Views
Some thoughts...
- 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM
2138 Views
It's not an objective morality.
- 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM
2089 Views
Its not that simple...
- 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM
2163 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion.
- 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
2068 Views
Whats the best new POV
- 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM
2160 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread
- 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM
2305 Views
A bit.
- 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM
2240 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2190 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM
2190 Views
Re:
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2180 Views
- 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM
2180 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM
2223 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything
- 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM
2086 Views
The crone who prophesied the stallion who mounts the world saw the stallions face
- 27/07/2011 05:13:28 AM
2255 Views
Eh?
- 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM
2221 Views
This is complicated.
- 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
2446 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight?
- 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM
2113 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people
- 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM
2211 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not?
- 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM
2442 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads?
- 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM
2153 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread
- 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM
2338 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai.
- 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM
2672 Views
Yup.
- 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM
2018 Views
I'm uncertain about that
- 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM
2133 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that.
- 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM
2407 Views
Am I the only one who thinks...
- 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM
2255 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that
- 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM
2330 Views
It's possible, the problem is Jon's warging skill isn't all that well developed.
- 10/08/2011 10:53:32 PM
2121 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline?
- 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM
2166 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill?
- 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM
2086 Views

*NM*