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The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control DomA Send a noteboard - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM
Do you think Bolton really killed him?
Would be somewhat anti-climatic to have that happen off-screen, but of course rather typical of Martin's style. He saved a couple of characters through cliffhangers between the last book and this, so it's not very likely he'll do it again.
What happens to Melisandre then?
What's the point of Davos mission up North to find Rickon?
What does it mean for the realm? Tommen ruling unchallenged for now, with Bolton being his warden of the North?
Why now? Maybe Martin doesn't need another challenger for the throne, now that Aegon's arrived and that'll turn into a mess pretty soon.
Still, I somehow hope that Stannis is not dead. It's not a character you really love, but I always found it impossible to dislike him either and especially appreciated him coming to help the Wall.


The first suspicious thing about it is that it's from Ramsay and not Roose. Roose would never have let his son handle threats to the Night's Watch for its interference etc., which speaks for his present absence from Winterfell (his informers around Ramsay would know if he meant to send a raven to Jon Snow).

Another suspicious thing is that Ramsay is obviously unaware that Theon and Jeyne fled not to the Wall but to Stannis (which incidentally is probably why Ramsay didn't catch them.. his hunters were sent after them in the wrong direction). Ramsay omitted to reveal to Jon that the rescue was for nothing as his wife isn't the real Arya, so whatever effect the letter was expected to have on Jon, Ramsay intended to happen long before Theon and Jeyne reached the Wall. By and large, it seems to be a "you've failed in everything, I hate you and be sure you will pay" message, doubled with an attempt to frighten Jon into abandonning a "lost cause" and to appease the Boltons, sending Ramsay Stannis's kin and Melisandre. Most of all, the letter sounded like Ramsay is losing control.

Asha's POV showed that Stannis's camp isn't all that easy to find as it's buried in the snow. The party with Theon seems to have taken a long time to find it. It seems that Stannis is sending scouts ahead to blow horns much closer to Winterfell than he is (and probably in the wrong directions). It seems plausible Roose's sortie hasn't found Stannis' army yet. Three days riding from Winterfell (in good weather) makes a huge perimeter, especially in a storm and if the direction Roose thinks Stannis' army is is wrong.

It seems quite likely all hell broke loose at Winterfell in the botched rescue attempt, and obviously Ramsay has managed to capture some of Mance's party (including Mance himself? that remains to be seen) and torture the plot to rescue Jeyne, and othr details, out of them.

Another hint that Ramsay was raving and his letter isn't coolly calculated is that he seems to assume Theon would seek to go to Jon, or that Jon would actually not kill Theon on sight if he did. It would be a rational possibility if Jeyne was truly Arya Stark, but she is not. It's almost as if Ramsay has forgotten this, though.


If Stannis has really been defeated and killed, my guess is that we'll return to these events in the next book. For now, it's built terribly like the storyline that got Davos reported executed in AFFC.

Even by GRRM's standards, there seems to be too much set up behind this to resolve it this abruptly. Davos has gone to find Rickon. Manderly is infiltrated among Ramsay's people, and feeding Freys to Freys seems obviously just his first course (his revenge/plans sounded far more ambitious). Is Kastark really intending to betray Stannis, or did he manage to join Stannis's cause with Roose Bolton convinced he's on his side? Kastark was safely with Stannis three days from Winterfell for weeks, and seems in no hurry to send any messenger to tell Roose about this... Stannis could make the Kastarks the lords of Winterfell and the wardens of the north after the Starks, and the Kastark castellan a lord. With Theon's arrival to the camp, that should get clarified sooner than later.

The benefits of the "letter" seems obvious, however. It served its purpose at the Wall to bring about the plot to remove Jon, and reshuffled the deck. Selyse is isolated with her daughter - if they survive. If she thinks Stannis dead and Jon dead or dying, Melisandre will be forced to look with another perspective into her fires, as it seems she misread almost everything so far. She can almost certainly save Jon's life too with her magic (save or bring him back), if she wishes to. Tormund and fifty men are at Castle Black in the midst of the "coup", and there are thousands wildlings this side of the Wall now. Even if Jon survives (I'd be more worried about him if Martin had shown Ghost getting killed at his side, and made this all happen much further away from Melisandre's quarters), Martin just put a serious wrench in his plans and alliances.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6142 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1688 Views
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Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1604 Views
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No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1646 Views
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One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 954 Views
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Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1537 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1656 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1504 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 1656 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1607 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1848 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1842 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1678 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1751 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1593 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1722 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1771 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1684 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 1648 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2031 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 1962 Views
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Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 1607 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1535 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 1769 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 1779 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1590 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1638 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1674 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 899 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1778 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1710 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1631 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1815 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1606 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1822 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1662 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1601 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1639 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1686 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1723 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1659 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1708 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1667 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1699 Views
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Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1819 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1576 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1581 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 886 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1723 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1891 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 1983 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 1777 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 882 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 1513 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1687 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1596 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1659 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 1642 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 1680 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 790 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1640 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 1732 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 1670 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 1737 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1625 Views
The letter sounded like the ravings of a psychopath loosing control - 27/07/2011 02:56:21 AM 1782 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 1733 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1807 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1629 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1676 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1604 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 883 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1621 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 1608 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1690 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1531 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 1717 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1588 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1600 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1605 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1594 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1672 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1619 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1604 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1694 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1564 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1476 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1576 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1583 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1636 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1574 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1571 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1468 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1543 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1628 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1602 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1656 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 918 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1449 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 952 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1782 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1752 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1686 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1603 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1684 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1596 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1514 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1702 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1696 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1692 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1603 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1706 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 1908 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1613 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1647 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1550 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1645 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1620 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1627 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1503 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 874 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1519 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 1917 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1711 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1628 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1644 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1835 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1751 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1756 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1548 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1528 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2156 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 1890 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1605 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1474 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1657 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1608 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1892 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1729 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1719 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1785 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1703 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1708 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1643 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1622 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1552 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1597 Views

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