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I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. Tom Send a noteboard - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM
I do disagree with the completely unsubstantiated statement you made about progress correlating to reduced crime rates. I'll believe it when I see anything credible on the subject. The trend of "progress" has typically meant that we have gotten better and more efficient at killing and torturing our fellow man. The Holocaust was terrible not only because it was mass killing based on ethnic principles but also because it was committed using the latest industrial technology. The atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima caused less damage than conventional bombing had caused in Dresden, but it was JUST ONE BOMB, which was a terrifying prospect.

So far, the belief that "progress" will make society better has proven itself false with respect to the way we treat each other. Yes, it has made our lives better in other ways - we build better homes with climate control, we get rid of diseases, we eat better, etc. It has NOT improved the way we treat each other.

Your statement about imperialism was just silly.

You said:

A possible future proof of God cannot in any way alter current morality, because at the moment, everyone is working on the basis of faith or the lack of it. Just like a future change in law cannot determine the legality of my current actions.


But that's not the situation in Martin's world. It is a world where many gods seem to exist and some seem to be actively engaged in the world.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6715 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 2262 Views
I have it! *NM* - 12/07/2011 05:42:27 AM 1226 Views
A general question to get the discussion started: will two more books be enough? - 12/07/2011 02:22:52 PM 2455 Views
A very good question *major spoilers, then* - 12/07/2011 02:55:05 PM 2426 Views
Oh, come on. If anyone can do it, Martin can. - 15/07/2011 03:48:27 AM 2129 Views
It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2460 Views
No but I think 3 will be possible - 26/07/2011 03:15:02 AM 2232 Views
what is Purple Wedding? *NM* - 27/07/2011 08:37:04 AM 1106 Views
Joffrey and Margaery wedding - 27/07/2011 04:26:04 PM 2266 Views
Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:12:02 PM 2563 Views
Lord Manderly gets my vote. - 12/07/2011 10:41:19 PM 2346 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 2241 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 2243 Views
Ohh, so that was what that was about. - 17/07/2011 07:08:19 PM 2294 Views
That's what I thought too. - 25/07/2011 01:48:50 AM 2255 Views
Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 1291 Views
Asshole of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:46:10 PM 2440 Views
Agreed. - 12/07/2011 11:18:07 PM 2392 Views
Yeah, little doubt there. - 17/07/2011 07:09:53 PM 2246 Views
Seriously... - 18/07/2011 03:07:47 AM 2220 Views
Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 2157 Views
Idiot of the book. - 12/07/2011 11:21:51 PM 2474 Views
lol yep, definitely *NM* - 13/07/2011 08:12:42 AM 1222 Views
Re: Idiot of the book. - 17/07/2011 12:42:20 AM 2339 Views
Wait... no she doesn't! - 17/07/2011 01:29:52 AM 2218 Views
She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 2164 Views
So... - 17/07/2011 07:18:24 PM 2213 Views
No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 2246 Views
Is there any hot sex scenes? I won't be able to read it for a while *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:35:49 PM 1303 Views
One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 1261 Views
Great Ending - 14/07/2011 01:21:53 AM 2465 Views
Really? - 14/07/2011 09:36:01 AM 2404 Views
Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 2052 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 2197 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 2022 Views
Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 16/07/2011 07:27:43 PM 2194 Views
Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 2173 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 2406 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 2369 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 2222 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 2292 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 2126 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 2282 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 2324 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 2243 Views
Didn't Jon just announced - 26/07/2011 02:51:07 AM 2167 Views
Something I totally missed first time through - 14/07/2011 09:40:33 AM 2599 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 2492 Views
Yep, that's what he said/thought - 17/07/2011 05:02:32 AM 2339 Views
Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 23/07/2011 04:14:38 PM 2137 Views
Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 2102 Views
I'm still not fully done, but about the Reek chapters... - 14/07/2011 04:05:29 PM 2328 Views
Agreed - 14/07/2011 06:18:15 PM 2321 Views
There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 2128 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 2179 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 2223 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 1197 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 2312 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 2240 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 2190 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 2413 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 2183 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 2410 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 2307 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 2142 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 2190 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 2407 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 2286 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 2189 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 2231 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 2224 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 2234 Views
I enjoyed them, very solid chapters. - 18/07/2011 12:50:43 PM 2332 Views
Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 2393 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 2168 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 2153 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 1183 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 2277 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 2469 Views
I find myself both depressed and let down... - 20/07/2011 06:37:16 AM 2594 Views
Am I the only one who really likes... - 20/07/2011 06:04:00 PM 2376 Views
yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 1179 Views
Davos is probably my favourite - 20/07/2011 09:51:03 PM 2047 Views
The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 2222 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 2187 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 2201 Views
Yes, I considered that as well... - 20/07/2011 11:48:32 PM 2167 Views
Have Quentyn's two mates already been sent off a this point? - 21/07/2011 02:03:15 PM 2240 Views
That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 1095 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 2181 Views
It's entirely possible Stannis was killed - 21/07/2011 02:09:10 PM 2231 Views
I highly doubt he's dead - 21/07/2011 07:29:59 PM 2219 Views
The bluff makes the most sense: if the Boltons beat Stannis, why does he ask for Theon & Jeyne? - 22/07/2011 12:01:30 AM 2263 Views
Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 2148 Views
The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 21/07/2011 10:43:43 PM 2309 Views
Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 2341 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 2170 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 2229 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 2126 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 1183 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 2163 Views
I think there are some god's, just given different names. Same with the magic. - 22/07/2011 09:24:51 PM 2151 Views
Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 2185 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 2086 Views
You might want to stop making them. Particularly glaring ones like that. - 23/07/2011 05:01:03 AM 2249 Views
A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 2149 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 2144 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 2140 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 2119 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 2250 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 2156 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 2157 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 2216 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 2097 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 2010 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 2164 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 2113 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 2188 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 2086 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 2109 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1988 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 2058 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 2181 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 2130 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 2239 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 1227 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 2023 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 1301 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 2333 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 2276 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 2213 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 2214 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 2249 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 2107 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 2034 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 2251 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 2273 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 2243 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 2109 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 2249 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 2475 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 2138 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 2239 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 2076 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 2146 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 2168 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 2175 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 2050 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 1163 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 2063 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 2471 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 2244 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 2182 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 2175 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 2380 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 2328 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 2357 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 2120 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 2108 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2699 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 2592 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 2189 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 2042 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 2178 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 2159 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 2441 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 2298 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 2255 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 2322 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 2256 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 2277 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 2352 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 2192 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 2114 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 2153 Views

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