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This is complicated. Werthead Send a noteboard - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM
The connections between Bran's weirwood visions, the new info we have on Elia and Lyanna and how they tie into the Reeds' story about the Harrenhal tourney.


In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?


Back in A STORM OF SWORDS the Reed kids tell Bran about the tourney at Harrenhal back before the civil war that kind of kicked everything off. ADWD explains some of their references a bit better.

In the original story there was a big tournament at Harrenhal which lots of players attended: Robert Baratheon, Eddard Stark and his siblings (Lyanna, Brandon and Benjen), Mad King Aerys and his son Rhaegar and his wife Elia Martell, Ser Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Ashara Dayne etc.

In the story the Reed kids tell Bran, several knights humiliated their father, Howland Reed, but then had their asses handed to them by an enigmatic mystery knight. Rhaegar Targaryen went to find the mystery knight and apparently failed to do so. He went on to win the tournament but named Lyanna Stark the Queen of Love and Beauty rather than his own wife. A popular fan theory is that Lyanna was the mystery knight, and this receives a boost from ADWD in which we see (in Bran's weirwood vision) Lyanna kicking Benjen's backside with a practice sword.

Since we know Elia couldn't have any more children (because elsewhere in ADWD we're told having her second child almost killed her) and Rhaegar needed a third child to fulfil the prophecy, that means he was on the look-out for a second wife (apparently, from Dany's vision in ACoK, with Elia's approval).

There's also the new theory the Brandon Stark seduced Ashara Dayne at the tourney and the stillborn daughter she had was Brandon's, meaning that Ashara and Eddard never slept together at all (Ashara was, prior to ADWD, the #2 candidate to be Jon Snow's mother after Lyanna). The whole situation is fairly complicated though.
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A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 11/07/2011 10:48:23 PM 6142 Views
Okay, first impressions. Basically spoiler-free, I suppose. - 11/07/2011 11:40:31 PM 1688 Views
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It'll be tight. - 12/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1879 Views
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Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 10:43:20 PM 1689 Views
Re: Hero of the book? - 12/07/2011 11:50:29 PM 1694 Views
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Victorian Greyjoy = Hero of the book *NM* - 21/07/2011 06:20:25 AM 969 Views
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Daenerys Targaryen & lifetime achievement award to Lord Rickard Stark - 17/08/2011 12:38:40 AM 1604 Views
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She thinks both - 18/07/2011 12:22:59 AM 1608 Views
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No, it's him. - 18/07/2011 12:25:33 AM 1646 Views
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One or two, but not all that long ones *NM* - 13/07/2011 02:57:12 PM 954 Views
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Re: Really? - 14/07/2011 09:38:34 AM 1537 Views
Re: Great Ending - 18/07/2011 02:05:00 AM 1656 Views
YES! - 14/07/2011 02:38:48 AM 1504 Views
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Re: Sorry for the n00b reply, sentiments still apply - 17/07/2011 12:45:52 AM 1607 Views
I don't know what to think... (spoiler) - 14/07/2011 08:59:39 AM 1848 Views
Probably not. - 14/07/2011 09:19:03 AM 1842 Views
Re: Probably not. - 14/07/2011 03:57:55 PM 1678 Views
I think the two are mixed up. - 14/07/2011 11:23:06 PM 1751 Views
Re: I think the two are mixed up. - 18/07/2011 02:10:29 AM 1593 Views
What made least sense for me as far as that is concerned... - 14/07/2011 11:51:20 AM 1721 Views
They didn't. - 14/07/2011 11:24:53 PM 1771 Views
I see - 15/07/2011 08:28:09 AM 1684 Views
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Re: Something I totally missed first time through - 16/07/2011 01:24:23 AM 1962 Views
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Well that brings new meaning - 26/07/2011 02:53:18 AM 1535 Views
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There's another... - 14/07/2011 07:16:11 PM 1589 Views
There's that... - 17/07/2011 01:12:33 AM 1638 Views
It's worse than that... - 17/07/2011 01:26:50 AM 1674 Views
Torture is wrong, and those chapters kinda proved it. *NM* - 26/07/2011 02:53:55 AM 899 Views
Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 16/07/2011 08:11:30 AM 1778 Views
Re: Having finished the book, my thoughts. (Spoilers) - 17/07/2011 01:02:10 AM 1710 Views
You put words to my thoughts exactly. - 18/08/2011 09:17:09 PM 1631 Views
It should be re-titled A Jump with Sharks - 17/07/2011 06:00:37 PM 1815 Views
Publishers are more interested in the bottom line. - 18/07/2011 12:31:56 AM 1606 Views
Sadly, I am likely overestimating the intelligence of the readers. - 18/07/2011 03:05:12 AM 1822 Views
I felt bummed by Sanderson's new series. - 18/07/2011 05:25:09 AM 1662 Views
I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 18/07/2011 01:09:15 PM 1601 Views
Re: I bought that book but have yet to read it. - 20/07/2011 06:45:46 AM 1639 Views
You might like this quote from House of Leaves by Mark Z Danielewski. - 11/08/2011 03:42:05 PM 1686 Views
I'm afraid I have to agree with what seems to be the majority opinion... - 17/07/2011 07:35:47 PM 1723 Views
And on a different note entirely: is it me, or did the book need more proofreading? - 17/07/2011 07:39:15 PM 1659 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 18/07/2011 05:59:58 PM 1708 Views
The book really shows it is AFFC part 2 - 26/07/2011 03:00:07 AM 1667 Views
Am I The Only One In Love With Arya's Chapters? *spoilers maybe* - 18/07/2011 02:22:00 AM 1699 Views
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Unlike others, I won't start a separate thread to express my thoughts - 19/07/2011 11:21:17 AM 1819 Views
Yeah, I wished there was a way to move them in here! - 19/07/2011 01:42:51 PM 1576 Views
Me too... but going and complaining about them seems so lame, too. - 19/07/2011 07:34:47 PM 1581 Views
I agree with Jens, good balanced review. *NM* - 19/07/2011 07:50:13 PM 886 Views
I think you let him off too easily. - 20/07/2011 04:19:07 AM 1723 Views
Your review is a little too generous (in my opinion) - 20/07/2011 06:57:45 AM 1891 Views
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yeh, he is nice... *NM* - 20/07/2011 06:20:13 PM 882 Views
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The six bodies fired by the trebuchet - 20/07/2011 10:36:16 PM 1687 Views
Yes, I was confused by that too. - 20/07/2011 10:53:35 PM 1596 Views
Probably pale mare victims. Seige warfare via plague - 20/07/2011 11:23:10 PM 1659 Views
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That could be it. *NM* - 21/07/2011 01:43:16 PM 790 Views
Stannis - 21/07/2011 08:43:40 AM 1639 Views
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Yeah... - 22/07/2011 12:27:53 AM 1625 Views
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Re: The Aegon Twist. Something about this doesn't add up. - 22/07/2011 05:42:13 PM 1807 Views
Alternatively.. - 22/07/2011 09:13:46 PM 1629 Views
Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 22/07/2011 04:32:39 PM 1676 Views
None of them. - 22/07/2011 06:25:19 PM 1604 Views
Is that personal opinion or based on something Martin said? *NM* - 22/07/2011 06:37:57 PM 883 Views
Opinion - 22/07/2011 07:43:16 PM 1621 Views
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Lose the apostrophe in the subject line. Then: on what basis do you assume this? - 23/07/2011 02:28:49 AM 1690 Views
You might want to stop wasting time correcting others typos. As for the gods... - 23/07/2011 04:53:59 AM 1531 Views
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A typo can't be "glaring"... - 23/07/2011 08:08:51 AM 1588 Views
Sure it can. Glaring: conspicuous or obvious. - 23/07/2011 03:52:57 PM 1600 Views
Morality stems from god? - 22/07/2011 10:47:59 PM 1605 Views
Of course it does - 23/07/2011 02:26:50 AM 1594 Views
On second thought, let's address the issue directly. - 23/07/2011 05:14:59 AM 1672 Views
Perhaps... - 24/07/2011 07:03:24 PM 1619 Views
Its simple... - 24/07/2011 07:37:11 PM 1604 Views
I disagree... - 25/07/2011 04:10:04 AM 1694 Views
Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 05:44:41 AM 1564 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 25/07/2011 06:27:09 AM 1476 Views
Some thoughts... - 25/07/2011 04:54:05 AM 1576 Views
It's not an objective morality. - 25/07/2011 05:41:33 AM 1583 Views
Its not that simple... - 25/07/2011 06:21:39 AM 1636 Views
I don't disagree with most of what you said. I just reach a different conclusion. - 25/07/2011 01:57:31 PM 1574 Views
Well... - 25/07/2011 05:02:45 PM 1571 Views
How then do you deal with the Euthyphro dilemma? - 16/08/2011 01:43:18 PM 1468 Views
Re: Which gods do you think are "real" in Martin's world? - 25/07/2011 02:24:07 PM 1542 Views
Whats the best new POV - 26/07/2011 03:14:05 AM 1628 Views
Barristan - 26/07/2011 12:23:20 PM 1602 Views
Didn't Aeron "Damphair" Greyjoy also only have 2 POVs - 26/07/2011 03:56:57 PM 1656 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 26/07/2011 11:33:11 PM 918 Views
thirded. - 27/07/2011 04:16:26 PM 1449 Views
Absolutely *NM* - 29/07/2011 02:31:54 AM 952 Views
Things you missed till they were pointed out via others or via a reread - 26/07/2011 03:23:53 AM 1782 Views
A bit. - 26/07/2011 12:32:32 PM 1752 Views
- 26/07/2011 03:46:54 PM 1686 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 12:43:43 AM 1603 Views
Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 01:33:36 AM 1684 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 04:38:19 AM 1596 Views
Re: Martin doesn't have to do anything - 27/07/2011 08:58:55 AM 1514 Views
Re: - 27/07/2011 04:27:18 AM 1702 Views
I like your theory. - 27/07/2011 04:35:22 PM 1696 Views
Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 26/07/2011 11:32:18 PM 1692 Views
Re: Interesting... hadn't noticed some of those either. - 27/07/2011 02:00:42 AM 1603 Views
Eh? - 29/07/2011 04:44:17 PM 1706 Views
This is complicated. - 31/07/2011 10:43:15 PM 1908 Views
Wait...a woman crowned for beauty was the victorious mystery knight? - 01/08/2011 03:00:49 AM 1613 Views
It is believed the Knight of the Laughing Tree is one of two people - 01/08/2011 04:47:21 AM 1647 Views
Yup. - 02/08/2011 12:03:26 AM 1550 Views
Also... - 02/08/2011 07:17:43 AM 1645 Views
And yet, my huge brain figures it out - 04/08/2011 04:20:06 PM 1620 Views
I've read this scene yesterday and I missed this... - 02/08/2011 07:55:35 AM 1627 Views
Allow me - 05/08/2011 02:14:15 PM 1503 Views
thanks *NM* - 07/08/2011 07:28:21 AM 874 Views
I thought this was pretty clear - 07/08/2011 05:18:54 PM 1519 Views
Hizdahr a Harpy? Innocent or Not? - 26/07/2011 03:36:56 AM 1917 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/07/2011 12:25:11 PM 1711 Views
Re: Interesting idea. - 27/07/2011 04:25:02 PM 1628 Views
What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 26/07/2011 04:13:27 PM 1644 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 12:49:52 AM 1835 Views
Re: What is happening with the Maesters subplot? Any new leads? - 27/07/2011 03:49:18 AM 1750 Views
Re: A Dance with Dragons discussion thread - 29/07/2011 01:42:57 AM 1756 Views
Okay. I suck. - 29/07/2011 01:50:56 AM 1548 Views
Let me rephrase that... - 29/07/2011 01:54:07 AM 1528 Views
Jon Snow is definitely Azor Ahai. - 29/07/2011 07:31:17 PM 2156 Views
Hmm - 31/07/2011 01:52:03 PM 1890 Views
you are correct - 31/07/2011 11:08:39 PM 1605 Views
Yup. - 31/07/2011 10:49:34 PM 1474 Views
But Shireen is a dragon... - 01/08/2011 12:22:16 AM 1657 Views
I'm uncertain about that - 01/08/2011 05:35:18 AM 1608 Views
True, but I wouldn't read too much into that. - 01/08/2011 11:42:29 PM 1892 Views
Where did he say that? - 02/08/2011 07:18:39 AM 1729 Views
In interviews - 02/08/2011 02:21:28 PM 1719 Views
A little thought about Jon... - 02/08/2011 08:02:34 AM 1785 Views
Excellent point. - 02/08/2011 02:22:22 PM 1703 Views
Am I the only one who thinks... - 09/08/2011 05:16:46 PM 1708 Views
I think Martin's gonna stick to Bran being the only one who does that - 10/08/2011 09:25:12 AM 1643 Views
Anyone have any thoughts as to the purpose of Arya's storyline? - 14/08/2011 06:28:09 PM 1622 Views
She's being trained as an assassin, so the question is who is she going to kill? - 16/08/2011 01:43:12 AM 1552 Views
Jon? - 18/08/2011 09:59:03 PM 1597 Views

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