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That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
The detachment we feel from an Aragorn is greater than that we feel from a Huck, but there's plenty in both cases. Especially in period pieces like the latter (Tolkien's conceit, after all, was that his was simply a much older period piece and, within that conceit, non-fiction.) If an author sugarcoats his analysis, even criticism, of humanity and its members by making them superficially inhuman while retaining everything essential, and then his reader fails to catch it, that's a failing in the reader rather than the author or genre. For a year or two I've played with the idea of a story whose meat is the various divisive bigotries trying to destroy this and other countries from the inside--but presented by demihumans in a fantasy world because no one will be offended if you use "digger" as a slur for Dwarves, but everyone will know the word you deliberately didn't use. There's even a quasi-political religion pushing it all because they've forgotten their own precepts, but I needn't fear any real religion complaining much because to call it an indictment requires they identify with it, which is self-indictment.

It's an idea, and one I've only broached due to time constraints: I am not Tolkien, even in my wildest dreams. But jh makes a very valid point, IMHO. Usually speculative fiction is little more than escapism (as famously alluded to in the introductory letter to most paperback copies of TLotR today.) Sometimes, however, you find a true master who does more than spin an engaging yarn: He has something worthwhile to say, to share. That's why they teach speculative fiction like The Once and Future King in schools, why the College Board didn't bat an eye when I wrote an AP English essay on TLotR, despite their clearly stated requirement that I could address the subject using any "work of recognized literary merit."

I agree, FWIW, that a dedicated OF Board would be good in future. I haven't been over here much (something slowly changing) but confess I was a bit confused when I saw a thread on Treasure Island (and let me hasten to add I thought the thread itself was fine, the location just struck me as odd): That's not really fantasy or SF, so what's it doing here? And then I realized it was kind of homeless and looking for any port in a storm. Yet you know better than I why it's like that for now. I was among those who feared moving away from a WoT focus would dilute RAFO's focus too much, make it a generic site indistinguishable from thousands of others, even as others feared WoT lacked the enduring interest to populate RAFO in the long term. It feels as if a compromise was struck, and if not everyone is entirely happy about that, that's how compromises usually work. You doubtless know better than I, but I strongly believe there will be an equivalent to OF one day and that encouraging that belief is more than a sop to those who crave one.

In the interim, there's nothing wrong with this. People aren't losing the SF/Fantasy threads in between the "straight" fiction ones or vice versa. There's plenty of room for both on one board right now, and when that ceases to be so I'm sure there will be at least one more board. A lot of speculative fiction is just pulp fiction, true--but y'know what? That's true of most fiction. SF/Fantasy doesn't get any more or less great writers than any other field. Remember there was a time barely a century ago when "novel" was a dirty word in literary circles, something your dowager aunt read (or so you told your friends. :P) For my money we should be more concerned with content than genre.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2011 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1087 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1053 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 534 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 982 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1059 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1122 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1064 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1024 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1077 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1009 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1045 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 981 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1042 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1053 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1022 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1117 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1005 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1039 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1092 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1082 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1168 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1076 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1030 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1121 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1043 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1190 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1127 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1126 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1085 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 962 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1133 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1007 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1048 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1251 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 946 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1142 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1065 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1117 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1108 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1179 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1034 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 912 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1016 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1079 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1031 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 498 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1104 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 990 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1131 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1063 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1034 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1059 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1001 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 938 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1031 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1098 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 448 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1134 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1030 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1006 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 950 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 953 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1030 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1086 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1078 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1013 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1055 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1026 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1036 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1126 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1006 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 986 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1017 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 996 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 545 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1145 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1065 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 992 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1010 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1162 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 964 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1005 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1017 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 967 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 980 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 994 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 969 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 904 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 960 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 997 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1079 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 513 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1007 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1048 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1112 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1026 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1039 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 957 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 954 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1079 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 955 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 945 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1013 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 989 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1004 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 921 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 490 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 960 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 998 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1591 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 969 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1110 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1108 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 999 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1142 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1020 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 915 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 953 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1023 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 960 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1109 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1021 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 971 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 992 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 949 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1023 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 459 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1013 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1054 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 946 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 991 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 963 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 917 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 956 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 988 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1008 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1013 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 502 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 937 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1044 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1006 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1089 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1053 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1021 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 997 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1018 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 988 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 530 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 494 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 973 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 980 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 968 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 524 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1099 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 987 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1013 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1067 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1019 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1025 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 995 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1010 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 977 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1107 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1090 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1078 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 958 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 954 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1072 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1035 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 999 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1035 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1042 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1097 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1095 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1035 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1074 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 425 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 550 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 514 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1030 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 944 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 996 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 525 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 511 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 518 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1000 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 828 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1125 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1061 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1065 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 985 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1121 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1068 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1034 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 984 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1137 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 946 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1029 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 985 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1044 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 989 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 928 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1036 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 954 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1080 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 961 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 857 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1014 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1057 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1123 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1033 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1160 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1100 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 994 Views

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