I'm not asking or demanding that you defend yourself or explain your preferences to the message board. You, however, immediately became defensive. That shows that you feel a NEED to defend yourself, which to my mind still means you're insecure about something I said. Perhaps I'm wrong.
This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club. People seemed to be of the mind that the book club should be primarily for Sci-Fi and Fantasy, a position that I disagree with for the reasons stated in this post. It's limiting and much of the genre is crap.
I take exception to your sentence "Equating one's choice of reading material with one's condition of intellectual achievement reeks of presumptuousness and elitism." No, it doesn't. Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books. Continuing education, whether in the form of simple classes or yet another Ph.D., invariably involves a heavy volume of reading. Watching educational television is a poor and superficial substitute for reading. The same is doubly true for the internet.
As a result, to speak of a "condition" of intellectual achievement approaches the situation from the wrong perspective, as though intellectual achievement were a mountain to be scaled, where a certain point is reached and we are "finished". I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.
Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.
As to your final point, "Again, with the presumption that I don't do this already. It would be amusing if it wasn't so annoying."
Grammar: if it weren't so annoying. Sorry. Back to the main point. You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.
This post was written in defense of other types of fiction as a response to the dialogue going on in the announced post regarding January's book club. People seemed to be of the mind that the book club should be primarily for Sci-Fi and Fantasy, a position that I disagree with for the reasons stated in this post. It's limiting and much of the genre is crap.
I take exception to your sentence "Equating one's choice of reading material with one's condition of intellectual achievement reeks of presumptuousness and elitism." No, it doesn't. Intellectual achievement and learning is a life-long process that ends only when we die, and reading remains one of the best ways to continue that process. I keep trying to think of other ways that people can effectively continue to learn, but nothing seems as effective as books. Continuing education, whether in the form of simple classes or yet another Ph.D., invariably involves a heavy volume of reading. Watching educational television is a poor and superficial substitute for reading. The same is doubly true for the internet.
As a result, to speak of a "condition" of intellectual achievement approaches the situation from the wrong perspective, as though intellectual achievement were a mountain to be scaled, where a certain point is reached and we are "finished". I therefore repeat my statement: someone who reads only unchallenging books is stagnating intellectually.
Whether I make this point by encouraging variety in a positive manner or as a reaction to choices suggested by others and hence by indicting a particular set of choices as bad, the result is the same.
As to your final point, "Again, with the presumption that I don't do this already. It would be amusing if it wasn't so annoying."
Grammar: if it weren't so annoying. Sorry. Back to the main point. You in your response said essentially that you don't read challenging books and are happy with it. As a result, my last point to which you responded as cited is not an assumption, but rather simply a statement based on the set of facts as you provided them to me. If they are incorrect, it is due to your misrepresentation of your reading habits to me.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
In Support of Other Fiction
- 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM
2321 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1381 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM
1381 Views
Re:
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1368 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM
1368 Views
you shouldn't feel the need to defend a non SF/F suggestion, just don't
- 03/12/2009 03:34:28 PM
1378 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM
1303 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality.
- 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM
1386 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That.
- 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM
1446 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point.
- 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM
1368 Views
perhaps some university will do a study
- 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
1350 Views
I'd like to see it
- 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM
1386 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This.
- 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
1319 Views
I'd like to see it.
- 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM
1371 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan
- 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM
1340 Views
I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM
1346 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too
- 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM
1416 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM
1287 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless.
- 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM
1350 Views
It would. Destroying the Wheel would likely make him a Buddhist.
- 03/12/2009 10:51:17 PM
1311 Views
I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1422 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM
1422 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That.
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1385 Views
- 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM
1385 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative.
- 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM
1495 Views
Re: Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction.
- 02/12/2009 12:28:30 AM
1336 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time
- 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM
1432 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer???
- 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM
1391 Views
Nice post.
- 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM
1430 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half...
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1454 Views
- 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM
1454 Views
Popcorn?
- 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM
1389 Views
I'm glad I could drive you from your Carthusian retreat, Larry
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1373 Views
- 02/12/2009 01:58:49 AM
1373 Views
It won't last for long - have too many things still to deal with in my life
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1389 Views
- 02/12/2009 02:36:15 AM
1389 Views
That's too bad. I'll have to learn monasterial sign language to continue a dialogue.
- 02/12/2009 03:49:01 AM
1306 Views
I concur
- 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM
1328 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing).
- 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM
1394 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun?
- 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM
1423 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason.
- 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM
1326 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school,
- 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM
1329 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows
- 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM
1258 Views
WoT has decent characterization, though a little overwrought. Harrington... not so much.
- 04/12/2009 04:26:43 AM
1515 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie.
- 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM
1400 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous.
- 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM
1414 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting.
- 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM
1362 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that.
- 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM
1267 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though.
- 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM
1252 Views
Which brings us back to my point.
- 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM
1374 Views
I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 05:24:02 PM
1272 Views
Re: I would like to see the study and statistics that produced this answer.
- 04/12/2009 10:42:33 PM
1295 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category
- 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM
1378 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today
- 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM
1368 Views
"Pertinent", not "Pertinant". If it weren't in all caps I'd have ignored it this time.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:36 AM
1362 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive
- 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM
1338 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction?
- 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM
1282 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way?
- 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM
1290 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing.
- 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM
1301 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"?
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1280 Views
- 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM
1280 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay*
- 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM
1474 Views
I was born in the Midwest.
- 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
1329 Views
I know.
- 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM
1297 Views
...!
- 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM
1271 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM
1324 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about.
- 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM
1266 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist.
- 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM
1308 Views
Read what you like to read.
- 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM
1407 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM
647 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat!
- 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM
1302 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve.
- 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM
1322 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though.
- 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM
1399 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM
1337 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure.
- 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM
1398 Views
I really did get under your skin
- 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM
1238 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass.
- 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM
1312 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care.
- 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM
1278 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness.
- 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM
1297 Views
Hm.
- 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM
1909 Views
Re-read my exact point.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM
1250 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential.
- 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM
1383 Views
There may have been an assumption about literature due to the reason for the post.
- 02/12/2009 02:37:47 PM
1327 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy
- 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM
1418 Views
As I see it...
- 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM
1296 Views
Yep.
- 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM
1450 Views
Re: Yep.
- 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM
1311 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially.
- 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM
1223 Views
I wasn't looking to generate controversy
- 02/12/2009 02:19:13 PM
1436 Views
Well... then I'm going to have to agree with Craig a bit.
- 02/12/2009 02:32:59 PM
1421 Views
Well, I was being somewhat denigrating. "Unnecessarily" or not is a matter of debate.
- 02/12/2009 02:40:29 PM
1256 Views
Well, it's only "unnecessary" if you don't want people to be turned off of your message immediately. *NM*
- 02/12/2009 09:42:46 PM
629 Views
Judging from the responses, most people weren't turned off immediately.
- 02/12/2009 09:59:35 PM
1229 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity.
- 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM
1289 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no.
- 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM
1258 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic
- 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM
1276 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me.
- 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM
1229 Views
You're playing a game.
- 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM
1336 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction.
- 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM
1315 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies?
- 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM
1214 Views
Bulgakov
- 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM
1317 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM
1292 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M.
- 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM
1200 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM
1254 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me.
- 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM
1299 Views
I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM
1293 Views
Re: I suppose.
- 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM
1307 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier.
- 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM
1352 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist.
- 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM
1287 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1382 Views
- 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM
1382 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler.
- 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM
1357 Views
There's an interesting book in Russian that might be translated somewhere.
- 02/12/2009 10:02:48 PM
1354 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre.
- 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM
1321 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points.
- 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM
1279 Views
the illiad is a classic
- 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM
1292 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad
- 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM
1276 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree
- 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM
1284 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post!
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1289 Views
- 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM
1289 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree.
- 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM
1381 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read.
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1361 Views
- 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM
1361 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this.
- 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM
1316 Views
Heh
- 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM
1305 Views
I have a few objections.
- 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM
1328 Views
where else should we talk about it?
- 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM
1303 Views
There's a difference between having threads about it and focusing the official book club on it.
- 03/12/2009 12:40:53 AM
1380 Views
This is the Sci-Fi and Fantasy Board for site optimization purposes.
- 03/12/2009 01:07:39 AM
14295 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line
- 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM
1354 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy
- 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM
1326 Views
That's it
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1427 Views
- 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM
1427 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following:
- 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM
1306 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM
556 Views
Yes, it is but actually...
- 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM
1306 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!!
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
659 Views
*NM*
- 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM
659 Views
another thing wrong with your argument
- 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM
1326 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad.
- 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM
1117 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1410 Views
(including the one on pertinent)
- 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM
1410 Views
is it just me, or is this now the largest post/thread yet on RAFO.com??? 168 replies so far! *NM*
- 03/12/2009 05:03:25 PM
600 Views
Congratulations on the replies count
- 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
1408 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM
1332 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
1377 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured.
- 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM
1277 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book?
- 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM
1436 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM
1309 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree.
- 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM
1301 Views
I've obviously missed the show here...
- 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM
1252 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing.
- 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM
1377 Views
What, your penis?
- 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM
1305 Views
Don't you know it!
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1172 Views
- 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM
1172 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure.
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1325 Views
- 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM
1325 Views
Metaphor versus literalism
- 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM
1340 Views
Metaphor divorced from the reality runs risks, however.
- 04/12/2009 10:25:47 PM
1251 Views
Honestly, the moral can always be dismissed as inapplicable if you want to dismiss it.
- 05/12/2009 12:16:39 AM
1264 Views
While that's true, it's much harder to just dismiss Mockingbird.
- 05/12/2009 03:57:42 AM
1239 Views
Then why read fiction at all? It's all a diversion.
- 05/12/2009 04:16:06 PM
1254 Views
I think people should read non-fiction, and The Nine Hundred Days is an excellent book.
- 05/12/2009 04:41:50 PM
1314 Views
aha. but.
- 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM
1478 Views
