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I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM
As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.

Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.

To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.

The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.

Fair enough, and a laudable goal. I personally think there's a lot more to WoT than just diversion though. There's meat on those bones, and not just in terms of making contortionists out of tropes (though that's a fine example since most people don't really think about what those tropes symbolize unless they've spent some time with Campbell.) You can't tell me you read the debates between Rand and the others over whether to torture Semi and don't see something... familiar.... ;) A lot of people won't, just as a lot of people would dismiss the parallels between demihuman and racial bigotry, but, once again, who's fault is that? I'm sure Stalin would be quick to tell you Animal Farm got it all wrong, too, but I doubt you'd be convinced. ;)

The thread will have to wait until I both have a chance to pick out all the more serious things I think Jordan has to say and have finished tonights shift. ;)
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2395 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1446 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1452 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 752 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1381 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1461 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1512 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1429 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1426 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1453 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1399 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1439 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1391 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1471 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1423 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1412 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1486 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1352 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1428 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1516 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1451 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1580 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1463 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1423 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1481 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1416 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1562 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1494 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1469 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1469 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1342 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1505 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1410 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1412 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1694 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1357 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1511 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1448 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1492 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1471 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1526 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1405 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1271 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1393 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1461 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1395 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 672 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1441 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1317 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1483 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1480 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1409 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1409 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1411 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1326 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1392 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1472 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 628 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1488 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1437 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1398 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1339 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1315 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1415 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1439 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1445 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1450 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1428 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1413 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1390 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1516 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1351 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1370 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1378 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1350 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 733 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1540 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1390 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1381 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1382 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1549 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1332 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1341 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1407 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1336 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1331 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1368 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1372 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1253 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1339 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1374 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1496 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 678 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1389 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1392 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1477 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1426 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1397 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1318 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1326 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1472 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1312 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1318 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1380 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1350 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1368 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1279 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 668 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1342 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1376 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1977 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1322 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1456 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1489 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1374 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1519 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1379 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1307 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1320 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1380 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1327 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1518 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1373 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1337 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1356 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1304 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1405 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 651 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1407 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1413 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1278 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1409 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1359 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1271 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1337 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1370 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1352 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1374 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 671 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1313 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1430 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1349 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1458 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1416 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1388 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1362 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1373 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1342 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 729 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 672 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1355 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1360 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1333 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 734 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1456 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1322 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1352 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1427 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1387 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1374 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1354 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1401 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1336 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1516 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1439 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1471 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1323 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1297 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1482 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1391 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1388 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1429 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1398 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1458 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1508 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1378 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1455 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 587 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 711 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 701 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1375 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1310 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1352 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 688 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 717 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 693 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1402 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1193 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1478 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1414 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1372 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1351 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1481 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1402 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1440 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1350 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1508 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1292 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1415 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1384 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1410 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1372 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1357 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1415 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1321 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1440 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1381 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1243 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1397 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1424 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1497 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1413 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1553 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1493 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1383 Views

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