Active Users:688 Time:26/12/2025 01:51:25 AM
Congratulations on the replies count Ellestra Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM
Diversity in reading is not a thing any of us here probably disagrees with. I think we should have a discussion about any book more then five people agree to talk about. The fact that anyone would be against discussing a book is bizzare to me (even if it was Goodkind or Twilight) if there are people interested in it then it should go on.

The problem with your post is something else. It's the assumptions you make to prove your point. Science Fiction (and Fantasy) is not a label that defines the quality of stories that are told. It's the definition of setting they take place in. It's a setting that is neither better or worse the planet Earth now (contemporary literature) or in the past (historical novels) and has nothing to do with quality and resonance of stories told. Telling meaningful stories about human experience is not something a setting has much to do with. Of course much of the works that are labeled SF or Fantasy are about action, adventure and cool ideas. They are pleasure reading. But the same can be told about the stories taking place in present or past. As Theodore Strugeon said "90% of everything is crap". This does not allows you to define SF as only action story with a gadgets and all that goes beyond it as not SF.

This is what I think irritates most people about your post is your insistence that if anything is more then just dumb entertainment it stops being Science Fiction. After all the discussions on this subject in the SF community as well as this board and all the crap mainstream critics and authors like Margaret Atwood caught for it I'm surprised you chose this argument. I'm not surprised by the reaction to it that so many here have. I can get why people who know nothing of SF have it. This is the reason we can't have nice things. This is especially grating, like so many people before me noticed, with the example you yourself used. Stanis?aw Lem once defined science fiction work as something that will be irrevocably changed if the SF elements were removed. The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction movie. It's plot doesn't make sense without the SF element. BTW by this definition Star Wars doesn't qualify for SF (could be as well told with cowboys or samurais).

Science Fiction can be powerful tool to show both psychological and sociological truth about human existence. I happen to come from a country where it was used as a one of main venues to describe and criticize oppressive system we lived in as it was considered unimportant and therefore was not censored (as much). This was not a diversion but a commentary on reality. Possible thanks to a people who though it's SF and therefore crap. I tend to find more true reflection of human nature in Discworld books then in most winners of Nike awards (most prominent Polish literary award which BTW recently went to Jacek Dukaj for his historical fantasy book Lód (Ice)). I also find many SF books more relevant to my experience as a scientist dealing with the rapidly changing technology then a book that tells a story about the hard life of male prostitutes in Thailand even if it was based on real story (the example is made up to avoid the discussion on the literary merit of the example - see I learned from your example :P). The themes of using and misusing technology and it's implications on society is something that is very relevant to my life. And nothing does it as well as SF does.

And last but not least is that the way you present your point makes one feel that you consider your point of view on what is worthy everyones attention more valid then others. And the assumption that all we all read is SF/F and “diversions”. This is what we talk about here but that doesn't mean it's all we read. I for example tend to feel more need to discuss SF and Fantasy books/tv shows/movies I liked then those of other genres. It doesn't mean I don't read/ watch anything else. This place spawned of a MB dedicated to a fantasy series. This means the people who come here are a group with specific interests. People interested mostly in discussing fantasy. Less in SF. Even less in something else. I often wish there was more discussion on SF and less fantasy but that doesn't mean I feel the need to enforce my views on others. If they don't want to have a Book Club on what you like it's no reason to insinuate that all they like to read is worthless, meaningless crap. Nothing stops you from starting your own thread to discuss a book you want to discuss. If enough people is interested to talk about it with you I'm sure the Book Club post can be made to accommodate you.
Evolution, just like gravity, works even if you don't believe in it.

Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
Reply to message
In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2321 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1384 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1371 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 714 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1307 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1387 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1449 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1369 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1352 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1387 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1328 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1363 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1322 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1375 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1341 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1346 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1417 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1289 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1350 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1427 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1388 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1497 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1390 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1349 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1400 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1344 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1490 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1435 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1407 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1393 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1269 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1431 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1327 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1341 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1623 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1283 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1456 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1393 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1422 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1400 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1462 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1337 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1200 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1328 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1397 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1335 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 631 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1380 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1262 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1423 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1415 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1331 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1344 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1332 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1261 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1323 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1401 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 591 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1417 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1368 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1332 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1267 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1253 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1323 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1376 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1381 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1369 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1354 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1339 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1323 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1455 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1284 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1290 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1303 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1281 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 697 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1475 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1330 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1299 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1322 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1496 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1255 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1273 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1327 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1270 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1264 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1293 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1309 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1188 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1265 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1304 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1411 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 647 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1302 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1322 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1404 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1337 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1326 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1247 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1253 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1401 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1241 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1248 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1315 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1280 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1299 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1211 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 632 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1274 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1314 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1911 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1252 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1385 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1421 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1299 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1453 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1312 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1227 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1254 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1316 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1252 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1427 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1292 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1261 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1279 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1230 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1337 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 616 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1318 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1353 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1216 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1320 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1295 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1201 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1257 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1303 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1295 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1309 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 640 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1243 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1353 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1288 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1387 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1361 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1323 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1284 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1296 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1276 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 679 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 637 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1286 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1292 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1255 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 697 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1384 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1261 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1290 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1362 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1316 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1308 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1285 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1324 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1262 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1408 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1371 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1389 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1254 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1230 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1395 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1331 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1304 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1356 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1331 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1393 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1431 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1310 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1382 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 556 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 680 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 668 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1309 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1238 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1284 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 659 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 682 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 659 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1330 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1119 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1416 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1350 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1307 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1275 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1412 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1333 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1380 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1280 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1440 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1214 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1344 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1312 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1343 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1305 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1281 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1342 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1256 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1381 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1308 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1173 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1329 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1366 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1434 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1341 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1481 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1413 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1305 Views

Reply to Message