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I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough random thoughts Send a noteboard - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM
The Iliad is at least is fantasy just as much as Tolkien's work (which he wrote as mythology remember). Any story in which gods and goddesses take an active participatory role is fantasy, pretty much by definition.

{EDIT: there, I fixed the spelling errors}

In Support of Other Fiction

I’ve made a great number of statements at this website (if written threads can be properly termed “statements”) which convey my displeasure with the obsession that many visiting RAFO seem to have with science fiction and fantasy. It would be hypocritical to pretend that I do not enjoy the occasional science fiction or fantasy book – indeed, if that were the case, how did I end up here in the first place?

My position is not that science fiction and fantasy are not worth reading. I read just this year, with much pleasure, The Gathering Storm, the Mistborn trilogy and Warbreaker. I have read Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Orson Scott Card, Douglas Adams, J.K. Rowling and other writers of fantasy and science fiction and will continue to do so.

However, I will repeat a statement that I’ve made several times in the past: Reading science fiction and fantasy is sort of like eating fast food. There’s nothing wrong with it in moderation, but when it dominates what you read, you sit back after the fact, disgusted with yourself and say, “What have I done?”

The reason is that most speculative fiction (and I’ll use that term since it is a more broad and inclusive one than “fantasy and science fiction”) is essentially a diversion, to literature what a Hollywood blockbuster is to cinema. To call it “escapism” risks raising a whole host of moot issues and ignores the fact that many people need such an escape for psychological and/or emotional reasons. However, a diversion of any sort does exactly what its title proclaims – it diverts people from their problems.

Diversion can be helpful, at times necessary. The problem arises when the diversion is constant and unrelenting. Diversions cannot help people solve underlying problems in their lives. A person engaging in diversion is not addressing the fundamental questions of existence in a meaningful way. There is no head-on confrontation with mortality, the double-edged sword of love, politics, religion or musings on other metaphysical questions. Diversion smacks of a furtive, secret love affair that a spouse engages in to avoid dealing with the spousal relationship on its own terms.

Speculative fiction can, in some cases, be more than diversion. The dystopian novel is a prime example of this, where the speculative world serves as a warning for present society to correct perceived mistakes in ideological, economic or sociopolitical trends.

Tolkien is also good example of speculative fiction that comes close to realistic fiction in its themes and motifs. When the main story of The Lord of the Rings is set aside, much of what remains is a corpus of stories and fragments of stories dealing with love, loss, failure and tragedy, with hubris and resentment and the scent of real life. His Lay of Leithian emulates the best traditions of classic epic poetry. Even so, however, his works still fall somewhat short of the mark. Talking about, for example, the “hubris of Boromir” as a parallel to the hubris of Achilles in the Iliad just doesn’t work. The suicide of Dido from the Aeneid has no parallel in Tolkien. However, Tolkien resembles traditional literature in that he addresses the human condition with all of its neuroses and insecurities.

Traditional literature is, first and foremost, about what it means to be human. Fundamental questions about morality, existence, and our lives are raised, and in some cases solutions are proposed to the reader for approval or rejection. Ennui, nostalgia and loss are present. Good doesn’t always win, and characters with deep and well-developed personalities suffer. Fanciful Deus ex machina solutions aren’t available, or at least aren’t usually available. The anticipation of loss is real, and that loss usually then occurs as anticipated. It is because traditional literature addresses these points that it has meaning. We recognise it as real because we feel those things in our lives.

There’s nothing wrong with reading a thriller, or a murder mystery, or a science fiction book. Some even may pleasantly surprise the reader by having some deeper meaning. But we can’t just watch Meet the Parents or Die Hard XXV. Sometimes we need to watch Schindler’s List or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. Diversions are useful, but not at the expense of growing intellectually, emotionally or psychologically.

I realise that I am inviting responses that state that Robert Jordan or George Martin aren’t “diversions” (they are) or responses along the lines of “I found deep meaning in X” where “X” can be virtually any series in print. While I further realise that “finding meaning” is a subjective term, objectively speaking it is precisely the “speculative” in speculative fiction that distances it from reality and from the reality of the human condition. One can argue over the level of “diversion” in a particular series, but the fundamental premise is that every now and then, people should read books that aren’t diversions in order to grow.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2185 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1260 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1234 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 628 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1158 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1263 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1294 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1246 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1221 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1264 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1195 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1211 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1168 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1223 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1194 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1184 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1285 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1181 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1211 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1279 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1264 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1359 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1262 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1202 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1294 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1220 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1362 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1300 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1294 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1266 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1129 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1315 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1177 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1222 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1492 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1136 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1316 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1248 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1295 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1280 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1339 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1213 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1067 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1179 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1264 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1193 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 577 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1264 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1144 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1298 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1250 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1196 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1217 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1176 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1122 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1199 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1260 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 526 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1290 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1203 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1193 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1129 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1126 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1190 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1243 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1254 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1195 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1224 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1188 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1196 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1320 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1165 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1168 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1175 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1168 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 616 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1320 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1223 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1155 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1199 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1349 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1132 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1166 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1185 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1139 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1137 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1187 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1165 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1061 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1125 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1179 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1261 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 579 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1178 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1209 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1286 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1180 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1209 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1123 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1120 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1250 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1114 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1111 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1196 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1150 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1163 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1085 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 569 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1140 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1185 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1778 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1126 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1273 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1278 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1174 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1316 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1177 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1098 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1118 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1196 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1130 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1287 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1157 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1142 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1160 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1108 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1200 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 541 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1181 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1231 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1104 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1174 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1154 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1093 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1133 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1188 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1173 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1178 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 571 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1102 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1213 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1171 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1249 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1229 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1194 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1143 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1176 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1146 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 597 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 562 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1142 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1163 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1133 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 603 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1263 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1159 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1179 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1235 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1193 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1187 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1148 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1182 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1131 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1267 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1264 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1243 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1141 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1116 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1248 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1219 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1163 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1218 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1224 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1269 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1281 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1197 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1257 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 489 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 621 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 598 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1190 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1113 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1154 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 596 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 584 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 598 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1172 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 988 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1295 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1222 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1195 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1148 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1300 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1210 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1228 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1156 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1313 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1101 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1203 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1174 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1210 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1172 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1112 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1211 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1130 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1245 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1142 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1046 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1195 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1242 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1302 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1218 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1340 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1278 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1174 Views

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