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I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... Legolas Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM
I'm more and more of the opinion that we properly label books as genre books only if they're formulaic and predictable to a certain extent. When a book displays some or even many attributes of genre fiction but has a lot more depth, it ceases to be genre fiction. Tolkien is not fantasy; Tolkien is literature. Jordan is genre fiction. Dan Brown is genre fiction. Stephen King is genre fiction. George Martin is genre fiction. Stanislaw Lem is not genre fiction. Bulgakov is certainly not genre fiction.


but Solaris is science fiction, period. I agree with Greg's points - if you insist on stripping the best works of fantasy or science fiction of those labels, obviously before too long what remains will be of low quality. But for a book like Solaris, I can't see any valid reason to not consider it sci-fi, and same thing for Lord of the Rings as fantasy. And I also agree with Greg that all fiction books fit into a genre of some sort, with "literature" or "the literary canon" not being genres, but rather a quality label that stretches across all genres. It's true that most books of the literary canon are located at intersections of genres, or combine a number of genres, or "found" a new genre like LotR did, but I don't think that undermines the basic point. It just indicates that, obviously, originality is important if you want to produce a highly rated work of literature, and that's unlikely to work if you stick to following the fixed formulas of a genre, any genre.
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2788 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1558 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1717 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1662 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1664 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1602 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1637 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1586 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1806 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1621 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1752 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1673 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1706 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1835 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1707 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1546 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1607 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1658 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1633 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1612 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1667 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1710 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1554 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1724 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1705 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1666 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1693 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1718 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1653 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1776 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1637 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1829 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 856 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 839 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1783 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 881 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1696 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1691 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1753 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1627 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1627 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1699 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1616 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1708 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1699 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1598 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1672 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1626 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1632 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1723 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1763 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1633 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1629 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1547 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1601 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1631 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1748 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1590 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1567 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1410 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1587 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1522 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1592 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1639 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1676 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1599 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1643 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1584 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1638 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1598 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1665 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1800 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1665 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1666 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 845 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1688 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1672 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1652 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1547 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1596 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1665 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 825 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1715 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1780 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1526 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1697 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1719 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1613 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1687 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1650 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1693 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1748 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1677 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1764 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1604 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1630 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1611 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1768 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1597 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1616 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1608 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1578 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1852 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1636 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1708 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1654 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1605 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1629 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1634 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1538 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1778 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1605 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1673 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1744 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1767 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1729 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1702 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1610 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1698 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1535 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1608 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1617 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1606 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1569 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1604 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1464 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1660 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1707 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1616 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1567 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1510 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1758 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1640 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1604 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1670 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1532 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 915 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1694 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1644 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1588 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1746 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1678 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1729 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1718 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1594 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 849 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1629 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1640 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1725 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1590 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1692 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1631 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1771 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1563 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1620 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1556 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1835 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1599 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1736 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1719 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2295 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1566 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 2071 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 824 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1500 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1751 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1570 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1586 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1618 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1606 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1563 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1599 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1596 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1590 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1568 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1591 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 810 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 835 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1560 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1519 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1588 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1528 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1577 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1578 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1465 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 873 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1869 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1531 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1587 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1566 Views

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