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See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
I hate that misconception. No literary theory worth its salt argues that "you can't say someone's opinion is wrong". All they say is that you can get different interpretations from the same piece of texts. Confusing the two is like saying all fourlegged creatures are cats. It bugs me no end.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that you can get different interpretations of a text. However, I do disagree with the idea that all interpretations, even when you limit it to those that are not "wrong" in the sense of contradicting elements of the text, are equally valid and equally relevant. Surely the primary interpretation, the one receiving most attention, has to be the one the author intended - provided of course that that can be determined, and acknowledging that there may be disagreement on what it was the author intended.

Boutade? I looked it up in the oed, and it says it means a sally or sudden outburst. I am not sure I understand.

See my reply to Tom on "boutade" as used in Dutch (and, one would presume, French).
The problem with authorial intention is (in the main) twofold:

-we have no access to it.

-it cannot fix meaning.

The first is basically down to psychoanalysis, I suppose. Even disregarding that the author might make up his intention after the fact (lie or deceive himself), the whole theory of the subconscious can be summed up in the knowledge that we do not have conscious control over all aspects of our actions.

So because authorial intent cannot be known 100% exactly, you immediately ditch the 90% or more that in many cases (admittedly not all) *can* be known. That is the problem I and many other people have with this.
The second is down to the nature of language as shared. Because it is communal and the meaning in it is not fixed, but subject to continuous change and individual interpretation: this means that not only is the idea of a pure thought transmitted directly through language to be decoded by the listener/reader an inherent impossibility (since language is not mathematical with fixed rules for encoding or decoding), the author is even formulating his text in borrowed language -- something that he does not control.

And same here. It's silly to throw authorial intent overboard entirely just because it cannot be conveyed with 100% accuracy. There are very few things in this world that do attain that 100% accuracy. Obviously in some cases the authorial intent is *truly* unclear, and various intent-based readings are possible. But that's no reason to reject it for all cases.
Neither of these are really difficult concepts, but because the trend in our society tends towards oversimplification, it becomes a caricature of itself.

I might as well say that the trend in academia trends towards nitpicking to the point of rejecting a common-sense concept like authorial intent entirely just because it's imperfect.
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2595 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1375 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1523 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1463 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1483 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1408 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1467 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1421 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1612 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1451 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1553 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1486 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1531 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1636 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1522 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1356 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1405 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1458 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1429 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1412 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1474 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1537 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1399 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1527 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1509 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1451 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1516 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1538 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1448 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1581 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1459 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1645 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 760 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 752 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1564 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 781 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1525 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1502 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1562 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1485 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1432 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1517 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1425 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1533 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1507 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1403 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1475 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1424 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1478 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1534 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1577 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1461 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1426 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1363 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1421 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1397 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1593 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1414 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1399 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1266 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1399 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1335 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1372 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1456 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1488 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1413 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1464 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1431 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1442 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1438 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1489 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1612 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1471 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1488 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 766 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1492 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1480 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1462 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1367 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1432 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1453 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 702 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1516 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1569 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1368 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1521 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1516 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1406 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1509 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1458 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1527 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1557 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1507 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1580 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1434 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1452 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1436 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1567 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1406 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1430 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1427 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1389 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1673 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1465 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1491 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1446 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1428 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1461 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1463 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1343 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1583 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1435 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1486 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1559 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1562 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1532 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1504 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1460 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1502 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1380 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1411 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1440 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1415 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1391 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1418 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1305 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1477 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1522 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1433 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1387 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1321 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1557 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1461 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1423 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1484 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1349 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 814 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1513 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1463 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1394 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1565 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1521 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1537 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1519 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1397 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 747 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1430 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1455 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1540 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1422 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1519 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1476 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1547 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1391 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1446 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1365 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1646 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1397 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1560 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1546 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2094 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1390 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1880 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 732 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1315 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1532 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1378 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1395 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1446 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1422 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1365 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1439 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1426 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1403 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1397 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1413 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 712 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 734 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1371 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1328 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1390 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1352 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1389 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1362 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1273 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 772 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1703 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1351 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1437 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1396 Views

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