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Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Camilla Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
I hate that misconception. No literary theory worth its salt argues that "you can't say someone's opinion is wrong". All they say is that you can get different interpretations from the same piece of texts. Confusing the two is like saying all fourlegged creatures are cats. It bugs me no end.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that you can get different interpretations of a text. However, I do disagree with the idea that all interpretations, even when you limit it to those that are not "wrong" in the sense of contradicting elements of the text, are equally valid and equally relevant. Surely the primary interpretation, the one receiving most attention, has to be the one the author intended - provided of course that that can be determined, and acknowledging that there may be disagreement on what it was the author intended.

Boutade? I looked it up in the oed, and it says it means a sally or sudden outburst. I am not sure I understand.

See my reply to Tom on "boutade" as used in Dutch (and, one would presume, French).
The problem with authorial intention is (in the main) twofold:

-we have no access to it.

-it cannot fix meaning.

The first is basically down to psychoanalysis, I suppose. Even disregarding that the author might make up his intention after the fact (lie or deceive himself), the whole theory of the subconscious can be summed up in the knowledge that we do not have conscious control over all aspects of our actions.

So because authorial intent cannot be known 100% exactly, you immediately ditch the 90% or more that in many cases (admittedly not all) *can* be known. That is the problem I and many other people have with this.
The second is down to the nature of language as shared. Because it is communal and the meaning in it is not fixed, but subject to continuous change and individual interpretation: this means that not only is the idea of a pure thought transmitted directly through language to be decoded by the listener/reader an inherent impossibility (since language is not mathematical with fixed rules for encoding or decoding), the author is even formulating his text in borrowed language -- something that he does not control.

And same here. It's silly to throw authorial intent overboard entirely just because it cannot be conveyed with 100% accuracy. There are very few things in this world that do attain that 100% accuracy. Obviously in some cases the authorial intent is *truly* unclear, and various intent-based readings are possible. But that's no reason to reject it for all cases.
Neither of these are really difficult concepts, but because the trend in our society tends towards oversimplification, it becomes a caricature of itself.

I might as well say that the trend in academia trends towards nitpicking to the point of rejecting a common-sense concept like authorial intent entirely just because it's imperfect.


The point is that you cannot use what you think is authorial intent (based on the consensus of the masses) to dismiss other interpretations that cohere with the text. You cannot use it to fix meaning. I really do not see how that is nitpicking. I am fairly sure it would make me horrified if I were a brilliant author who constructed a text in which I made the main trend point in a completely different way to what I was trying to say, if 90 % of people got it wrong and used that to claim that they had it right. At its heart, the dismissal of the authority of the authorial intention is a respect for the author in the author's text.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2815 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1581 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1747 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1682 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1695 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1627 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1658 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1610 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1829 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1642 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1775 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1700 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1730 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1871 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1731 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1580 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1633 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1682 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1656 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1639 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1689 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1731 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1579 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1750 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1731 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1688 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1720 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1744 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1683 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1820 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1659 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1857 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 872 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 852 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1817 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 895 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1719 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1719 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1776 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1648 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1646 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1733 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1637 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1735 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1721 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1624 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1696 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1651 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1661 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1748 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1785 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1661 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1656 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1573 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1624 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1659 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1770 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1614 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1587 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1436 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1615 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1551 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1632 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1660 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1708 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1622 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1667 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1605 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1665 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1628 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1686 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1825 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1686 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1686 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 860 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1715 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1695 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1678 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1572 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1627 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1690 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 840 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1738 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1802 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1546 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1717 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1741 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1642 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1709 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1676 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1723 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1774 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1706 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1789 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1629 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1652 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1636 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1800 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1623 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1641 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1631 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1598 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1882 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1660 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1728 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1681 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1631 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1655 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1658 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1556 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1821 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1631 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1690 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1769 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1789 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1749 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1728 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1637 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1722 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1554 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1635 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1643 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1630 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1598 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1630 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1489 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1686 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1728 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1644 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1590 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1533 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1785 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1661 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1627 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1698 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1556 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 929 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1721 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1673 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1609 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1772 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1703 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1754 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1746 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1619 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 861 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1657 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1663 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1750 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1617 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1715 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1662 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1798 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1588 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1639 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1587 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1865 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1622 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1759 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1744 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2320 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1587 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 2093 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 837 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1524 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1773 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1596 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1612 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1639 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1631 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1584 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1624 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1621 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1611 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1592 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1610 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 823 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 848 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1584 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1547 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1615 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1547 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1606 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1600 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1496 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 891 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1883 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1556 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1610 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1595 Views

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