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And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels Larry Send a noteboard - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
I realise that trying to see labels used uniformly, particularly in this instance, is an exercise in futility. However, the way I see the genre label applied and the way I see it having the most utility is when it is used for derivative fiction.


While I'm more accustomed to seeing "genre" used as a way of hinting at broad categories of stories. Calvino certainly used it as such when writing his forward to his Italian Folktales.

As for how I would define fantasy and science fiction, I'm tempted to draw a line from Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart - I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it.


Ha! So SF/F=porn/obscenity? :P

If you were to force me to nonetheless try to define it, I would define fantasy as "literature written in a fictional world, alternate world or alternate reality, with the laws of physics usually subverted in some palpable way and usually involving the existence of fictitious creatures."


It's a workable definition, but the last part isn't as true, or at least for the stories I tend to read. As I'm reading stories for Best American Fantasy 4, I don't think there's been any stories that I've considered for inclusion so far that take place in a wholly-fictitious "world" or which have fantastical creatures appearing in it. If I had to write my own definition, I'd add that SF/F includes stories that focus on an estrangement of character and sometimes setting, with a dream-like, surreal effect occurring. Or perhaps that is what I'm reading for more than anything else at the moment.

If you were to force me to define science fiction, I'd define it as "speculative fiction written in a fictional world, alternate world, alternate reality or proposed future reality which strictly adheres to the laws of physics but which usually proposes inventions or technologies not currently present and often involving the existence of speculative forms of life which are usually extraterrestrial."


I like Darko Suvin's definition of it, which parallels some of what I said above: "SF is a literary genre whose necessary and sufficient conditions are the presence and interaction of estrangement and cognition, and whose main formal device is an imaginative framework alternative to the author's empirical environment."
Those are just rough attempts, however, and I think more work would need to be done to polish those definitions. I think the key distinction between science and fantasy is the way in which science itself is treated. So, for example, Poe's story about a man who travels to the moon in a hot-air balloon would be science fiction, because at the time the idea was considered theoretically possible and Poe was positing a better level of technology that would make that possible. On the other hand, a book like Ada by Nabokov would not fully qualify as fantasy because it doesn't attempt to subvert the laws of physics in any way. It isn't quite science fiction, though, but it might be classified that way if someone were so inclined. Of course, based on my use of genre for derivative work, I would put Ada in the category of literature.


Interesting that you reference Ada, as one of my favorite authors, Jeff VanderMeer, took the narrative form of Ada and tinkered with it to create a story, Shriek: An Afterword, set in his imagined Ambergris setting, that I think is one of the finer fantasies written today. The city setting is odd, twisted, and vaguely threatening, yet the characters have so much depth due to how VanderMeer gave a new twist to the narrative style that Nabokov developed (should note that VanderMeer is a huge fan of Nabokov and cites him as an influence). In fact, I think that novel would have made for an interesting discussion in parallel with Ada, not just for the similarities and differences in style, but also for certain thematic elements.

And something tells me that you wouldn't be able to classify authors such as VanderMeer strictly in one field. Whether or not you'd find his writing/stories to be among the best, that's another matter, but I doubt you'd find him to be derivative, outside of the most surface-level similarities to Nabokov and Angela Carter.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2787 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1558 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1717 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1661 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1662 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1602 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1637 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1586 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1806 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1620 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1751 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1671 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1706 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1833 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1706 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1545 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1607 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1657 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1633 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1611 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1666 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1709 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1553 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1723 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1704 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1666 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1692 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1718 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1652 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1776 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1635 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1828 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 856 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 839 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1782 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 880 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1695 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1689 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1752 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1627 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1626 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1698 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1615 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1707 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1699 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1597 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1671 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1625 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1632 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1723 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1762 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1632 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1628 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1546 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1599 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1630 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1747 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1589 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1566 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1409 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1586 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1522 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1591 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1638 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1675 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1599 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1643 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1583 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1637 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1598 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1664 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1799 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1664 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1666 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 845 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1686 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1671 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1651 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1546 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1595 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1664 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 825 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1714 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1779 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1525 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1697 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1719 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1612 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1686 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1648 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1692 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1747 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1675 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1764 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1602 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1629 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1610 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1767 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1596 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1615 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1606 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1577 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1851 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1635 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1708 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1653 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1603 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1628 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1632 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1537 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1777 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1605 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1672 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1744 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1766 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1728 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1702 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1610 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1698 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1534 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1607 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1617 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1605 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1568 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1603 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1464 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1660 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1707 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1615 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1566 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1508 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1757 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1639 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1603 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1669 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1531 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 914 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1693 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1644 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1588 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1746 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1676 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1728 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1717 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1593 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 848 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1627 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1639 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1724 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1589 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1692 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1630 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1770 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1562 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1618 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1555 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1834 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1598 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1735 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1718 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2294 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1564 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 2070 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 823 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1499 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1750 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1568 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1585 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1617 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1604 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1561 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1599 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1596 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1589 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1568 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1590 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 810 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 834 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1558 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1517 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1586 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1527 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1575 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1578 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1464 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 872 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1867 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1530 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1586 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1566 Views

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