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I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader Larry Send a noteboard - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
I consider Ender's Game to be classic sci-fi, but I don't sense any estrangement. I think any time you try to classify a genre based on the feelings that it evokes you start into dangerous territory, primarily because the feelings that a reader feels are inherently subjective. Objective criteria are the only that can be measured and applied consistently to categorise genre.

Other examples of science fiction without estrangement would include nearly anything related to Star Wars, whether in movie or book form, and nearly anything by Douglas Adams.


In other words, when I use "estrangement" in talking about SF, I am talking about all those additions that create a "distance" between text and reader; "this could never be 'real,' right?" Reader feelings about the text are mostly immaterial here; the text itself is written in a fashion that doesn't seek to have as close of a reader connection as would be the case if the reader were reading a biography or realist romance.

And as for the examples you cite, there is estrangement there as well...from seeing the cloned stormtroopers to the farcical nature of Zaphod and crew - the reader is removed a bit more from the "reality" of the narrative being read. Much less likelihood of the story being believed to be "true."
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2718 Views
Le plot. Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1478 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1645 Views
Les characters. Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1586 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. Camilla - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1599 Views
Hmm. snoopcester - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1530 Views
Re: Hmm. Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1577 Views
Re: Hmm. snoopcester - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1524 Views
Re: Hmm. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1733 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? Rebekah - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1550 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? Larry - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1678 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1609 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1648 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1753 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1643 Views
He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM 1531 Views
He would still have to swim, being on an island Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:37:26 PM 1709 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1476 Views
There is no such thing Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1533 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1582 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1564 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting snoopcester - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1539 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1592 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant snoopcester - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1644 Views
I'm never petulant Tom - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1488 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1653 Views
I think one important question to ask is... Legolas - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1637 Views
I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version. Rebekah - 26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM 1462 Views
I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM* Tom - 26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM 826 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. Tashmere - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1602 Views
the potentially removable part... Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1613 Views
I have read both Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1650 Views
I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general. Legolas - 27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM 1647 Views
Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM 1577 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged Ryan - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1586 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1701 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? Dar Valon - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1573 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: Danae al'Thor - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1758 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* The Shrike - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 818 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 810 Views
The book was very childish. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1699 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 851 Views
No, it really isn't. Tom - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1633 Views
You know, this is a problem. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1610 Views
Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol? Tom - 26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM 1598 Views
I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM 1497 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. Ghavrel - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1687 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien Tom - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1563 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. Camilla - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1553 Views
Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging. Tom - 26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM 1580 Views
I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though Camilla - 26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM 1590 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... Legolas - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1625 Views
Read His Master's Voice Camilla - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1539 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom Larry - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1632 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. Ghavrel - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1632 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... Larry - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1534 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1597 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays Larry - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1538 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? Tom - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1574 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors Larry - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1651 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1701 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely Larry - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1568 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. Tom - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1556 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels Larry - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1479 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. Tom - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1533 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though Larry - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1556 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. Tom - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1691 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader Larry - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1527 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. Tom - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1499 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose Larry - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1344 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over Tom - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1515 Views
True Larry - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1450 Views
Nice tie-in! Tom - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1512 Views
Larry - 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1577 Views
Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me. Legolas - 28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM 1569 Views
It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point). Tom - 28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 1647 Views
The approve of this message. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1599 Views
So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good! *NM* everynametaken - 26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM 807 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question nossy - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1522 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? Tom - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1575 Views
I honestly can't remember. nossy - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1518 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. Tom - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1567 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. nossy - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1540 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. Tom - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1597 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". Legolas - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1739 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. nossy - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1588 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? Rebekah - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1600 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* Legolas - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 813 Views
In your opinion nossy - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1617 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books Tom - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1595 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? Larry - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1584 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1473 Views
Ha! Larry - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1534 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1587 Views
Indeed. *NM* Rebekah - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 770 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1628 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog Tom - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1695 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. Tashmere - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1462 Views
On what basis? nossy - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1645 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1651 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. nossy - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1529 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. The Shrike - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1619 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. nossy - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1566 Views
Regarding comfort zones Camilla - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1638 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... Tom - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1680 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... Camilla - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1621 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1693 Views
Possibly Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1535 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1568 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1556 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1692 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1523 Views
Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it. *NM* Tom - 27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM 790 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1531 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1538 Views
why is it a bonus? Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1511 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1783 Views
I did Camilla - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1565 Views
Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM 1523 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones nossy - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1633 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones Camilla - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1574 Views
Halfway nossy - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1541 Views
Re: Halfway Camilla - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1555 Views
Re: The book was very childish. Dar Valon - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1573 Views
I read it in French Larry - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1452 Views
So. I really liked it. Nebhead - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1717 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. Rebekah - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1545 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. Camilla - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1607 Views
We were talking about this last night. nossy - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1681 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. Camilla - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1694 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. Tom - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1664 Views
Feel free to. Camilla - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1629 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. Tom - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1548 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1620 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. Tom - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1474 Views
My touchy-feely approach? Camilla - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1539 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1550 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1541 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Legolas - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1506 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1527 Views
Glad to hear it. Legolas - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1400 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1579 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Legolas - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1644 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1551 Views
Well, so what will it be? Tom - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1483 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1440 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM 1458 Views
Do it. I'd read that. nossy - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1690 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. Camilla - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1567 Views
Right then. nossy - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1535 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1597 Views
I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion. Tom - 27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM 1566 Views
And ANOTHER THING Tom - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1460 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* Camilla - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 882 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1630 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1573 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1530 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... Legolas - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1672 Views
It was mildly interesting. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1610 Views
I think you're misreading that... Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1668 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1647 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1516 Views
fine. *NM* Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 812 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1558 Views
What discussion? Camilla - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1580 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. Tom - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1656 Views
Which I still think we can. Camilla - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1528 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1620 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. Camilla - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1568 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. Tom - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1700 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. Camilla - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1496 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. Legolas - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1566 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. Camilla - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1484 Views
Deary me. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1771 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? Tom - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1525 Views
Not at all. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1670 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. Tom - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1655 Views
Thank you. Nebhead - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2223 Views
Please ban me, then. The Shrike - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1487 Views
I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far. nossy - 27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM 1594 Views
Nods Roland00 - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1989 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 791 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" Jacob - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1434 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? Wibble - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1691 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. Rebekah - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1488 Views
Oh i'm not complaining Wibble - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1530 Views
Sure sounded like it. Rebekah - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1554 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. Darth_Katie - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1547 Views
Absolutely. Jacob - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1498 Views
Agreed snoopcester - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1537 Views
Well, you should have known better! Larry - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1534 Views
I do. Jacob - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1519 Views
Thought you did Larry - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1503 Views
Jacob - 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1536 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* Ghavrel - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 771 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* Jacob - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 800 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen Tom - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1486 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. Tashmere - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1448 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. Ghavrel - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1513 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" nossy - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1459 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club AgentOrange - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1513 Views
Well I'm late to the party John - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1513 Views
No, you're early Camilla - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1382 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* Tom - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 834 Views
A few comments John - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1800 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. Tom - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1453 Views
Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book Larry - 03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM 1656 Views
Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting. *NM* Legolas - 03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM 779 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? Tashmere - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1519 Views
Sure. Jacob - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1503 Views
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