Active Users:766 Time:05/08/2025 07:20:45 PM
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying. Camilla Send a noteboard - 01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM

The point is that you cannot use what you think is authorial intent (based on the consensus of the masses) to dismiss other interpretations that cohere with the text. You cannot use it to fix meaning. I really do not see how that is nitpicking. I am fairly sure it would make me horrified if I were a brilliant author who constructed a text in which I made the main trend point in a completely different way to what I was trying to say, if 90 % of people got it wrong and used that to claim that they had it right. At its heart, the dismissal of the authority of the authorial intention is a respect for the author in the author's text.


Now that's what I call paradoxical. :P Out of respect for the author in his text, you refuse to acknowledge his own view of the text? Who on earth said authorial intent had to be "based on the consensus of the masses"? I certainly didn't, and Tom is far too elitist to even dream of suggesting such a thing. :P Obviously authorial intent has to be based on the author's own comments or commentary, and if that isn't sufficient, academic study of the work, the circumstances of its creation, the author's biography perhaps, whatever. I am more than willing to allow all kinds of evidence in the process, all kinds of academic research if needed, and "the masses" have nothing to do with it. What I am not willing to do is accept this blanket ban of yours on authorial intent being taken into consideration.

And your example is arguing my case for me and seriously undermining yours. If you reject authorial intent as you do, the author is powerless to influence how his text is received, powerless to stop the majority from massively misunderstanding what he wanted to say. He can shout all he likes about what it was he meant, but no, you're not interested in what he meant. I would certainly be horrified if that happened to me. This 90% of people "getting it wrong" in your example, they only get it wrong because they ignore - or are ignorant of - the author's intent. You're the one who advocates that, not me.


The central idea is that because the authorial intention is inaccessible, the only way of respecting the author (who may be dead, but that just makes respect all that much more important) is in not attempting to appropriate his voice (ie attempting to speak for him by claiming to know the intention), but in paying as close attention as possible to his text.

Explaining why, though, is not something I am planning to do here.
I recommend Derrida's The Post Card, though. At least I think it was that. There is an essay in there smashing Lacan for attempting to simply use Poe's "Purloined letter" by reducing it to psychoanalysis.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
Reply to message
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2611 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1387 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1535 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1481 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1503 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1428 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1483 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1441 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1629 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1470 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1570 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1505 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1550 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1651 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1543 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1377 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1421 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1478 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1446 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1427 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1490 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1554 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1414 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1551 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1532 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1467 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1533 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1556 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1471 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1602 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1477 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1661 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 769 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 759 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1583 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 791 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1546 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1519 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1578 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1504 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1454 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1531 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1445 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1549 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1526 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1419 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1494 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1439 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1493 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1550 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1598 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1479 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1448 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1376 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1438 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1436 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1612 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1428 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1411 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1282 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1417 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1353 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1407 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1489 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1508 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1429 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1481 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1446 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1461 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1456 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1506 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1629 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1497 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1512 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 775 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1512 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1500 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1476 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1381 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1448 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1473 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 715 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1531 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1586 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1387 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1541 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1539 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1425 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1523 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1475 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1545 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1580 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1522 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1597 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1448 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1466 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1455 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1585 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1425 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1448 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1445 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1411 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1687 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1486 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1505 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1469 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1439 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1476 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1480 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1359 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1607 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1450 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1510 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1573 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1579 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1547 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1525 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1483 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1519 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1395 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1438 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1456 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1431 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1405 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1437 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1320 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1491 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1534 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1450 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1403 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1335 Views
Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying. - 01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM 1330 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1578 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1473 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1440 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1501 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1366 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 823 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1529 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1484 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1414 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1586 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1541 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1557 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1540 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1414 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 755 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1445 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1474 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1555 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1444 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1533 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1492 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1559 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1411 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1460 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1382 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1660 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1414 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1580 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1562 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 2125 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1413 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1897 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 744 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1331 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1583 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1393 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1421 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1464 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1438 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1384 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1454 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1444 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1421 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1413 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1432 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 723 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 744 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1389 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1344 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1406 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1368 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1406 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1380 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1289 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 779 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1722 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1373 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1454 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1413 Views

Reply to Message