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Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point. Joel Send a noteboard - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM
My bet is firmly on the latter, just for the record.

No non sequiturs, I gave you examples of why language matters (ESPECIALLY when dealing with law and/or government).

1) If you don't make sure people say what they mean and mean what they say you could end up putting your worst nightmare in power because you THINK you agree with him.

2) In a nation where half the Bill of Rights is effectively a dead letter, you should probably be careful to avoid even the appearance of treason.

Of course, if you're more interested in shaking your fist at The Man than actually accomplishing anything it probably doesn't matter anyway.
Sorry, that's all I saw.

Then I am sorry as well. :[
Subversion has the connotation of treason because you're only applying it against an established government, though it can have any number of other connotations, too, depending on what structure you wish to be subverted. As I noted, I do not want to "over throw" a government or kill a sovereign leader. I want to subvert structures and systems. For instance, the US once had a structure in place that made it possible for only men to vote, until suffrage leaders subverted the system through the political process. Do you consider that treason?

There is a difference, and yet you seem to not see that. WHICH IS OKAY.

Penguin ghosts eat green apples, and then try to blow up parliament, so I do agree with you that subversion is bad. All hail the glorious system!

Subversion has the connotation of treason because so many people associate them that dictionaries make note of it; intelligence agencies et alia have routinely used the term that way for decades whether you and I like it or not. Who's stating opinion as fact here again...? ;)

I actually oppose substituting connotation for definition, and strongly, but I'm not willing to trade constructive political reform and enfranchisement for a trip to Gitmo just to carry the prescriptivist banner. It's odd how often people from left, right and center tell me they love our country in the same breath as telling me how much they hate anything to do with running it. If you really want to subvert "The System" rather than simply reform parts of it then, no, I'm afraid we aren't allies, because I still believe in things like free elections that are very much part of the system. It has merits and failings, and we should remove the latter, but we should also preserve the former, and subverting "the system" precludes the latter. It precludes most constructive action, in fact, because it results in anarchy.

Meh. Wasting time I don't have to spare here. At least the anarchists and Tea Party agree on something.... :rolleyes:
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This message last edited by Joel on 16/11/2010 at 12:11:36 AM
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Subversive Websites - 13/11/2010 10:49:15 PM 1346 Views
"Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established govt". - 14/11/2010 01:44:14 AM 732 Views
Re: Gee, thanks dad! *NM* - 14/11/2010 01:32:32 PM 500 Views
Well, I'm hoping I simply disagree with your diction rather than your motives. - 14/11/2010 03:36:57 PM 796 Views
Re: No, you disagree with my motives. - 15/11/2010 01:06:54 AM 781 Views
The Founding Fathers of the US? - 15/11/2010 10:18:32 AM 815 Views
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God". - 15/11/2010 01:15:33 PM 849 Views
I'm sure bin Laden completely agrees - 15/11/2010 01:32:53 PM 824 Views
When you give me an example of Jefferson murdering women and children that analogy will work. - 15/11/2010 01:49:04 PM 763 Views
yes because Jefferson was a PARAGON of virtue himself - 15/11/2010 02:17:58 PM 860 Views
I wasn't aware I'd made that statement. - 15/11/2010 02:25:27 PM 686 Views
nvm, I was going to argue but I have decided not to *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:46:42 PM 459 Views
So you are being completely subjective here? It is wrong, unless it is for a cause you support? *NM* - 15/11/2010 02:30:37 PM 385 Views
No, it's a question of precedence. - 15/11/2010 04:13:04 PM 707 Views
His analogy works very well, and you are still being subjective. - 15/11/2010 08:23:25 PM 944 Views
The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 09:17:01 PM 906 Views
Re: The precedence is inherent in the statement; that was Jeffersons point. - 15/11/2010 10:52:40 PM 724 Views
I don't believe that at all. - 16/11/2010 12:08:26 AM 604 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 16/11/2010 11:52:36 PM 827 Views
Re: As I mentioned numerous times. - 17/11/2010 01:34:29 AM 801 Views
No, its relevancy is difficult to grasp. - 16/11/2010 07:19:11 AM 958 Views
Maybe I just have an unusual perspective. - 16/11/2010 04:15:39 PM 862 Views
I didn't know they bombed a SCHOOL!!! - 16/11/2010 04:31:24 PM 740 Views
Please. If there were any soldiers in the WTC on 911 it was coincidental. - 16/11/2010 04:40:51 PM 761 Views
perhaps, but not all important targets are military targets. - 16/11/2010 04:57:20 PM 913 Views
Not all important targets are LEGITIMATE targets either. - 16/11/2010 05:06:11 PM 735 Views
I don't wish one, but I hate sidebars - 16/11/2010 05:09:33 PM 791 Views
All about priorities; your call. - 16/11/2010 10:33:53 PM 706 Views
That's so many hours of my life I'll never get back. - 16/11/2010 10:41:55 PM 770 Views
This your first time on the CMB? - 16/11/2010 11:18:03 PM 736 Views
No, NOW I know what's going on! - 16/11/2010 04:36:04 PM 889 Views
Still doesn't work. - 16/11/2010 04:50:58 PM 907 Views
Those last sentences are going way overboard. - 16/11/2010 05:08:40 PM 735 Views
Terrorism is inexcusable and indefensible, but at least there's a LOGIC to it. - 16/11/2010 05:21:15 PM 828 Views
First of all, your generalizations were misguided. - 16/11/2010 05:40:55 PM 843 Views
Of course I disagree, but that's a different and older debate. - 16/11/2010 11:10:23 PM 1015 Views
I will try to be brief. Try. - 16/11/2010 11:28:28 PM 817 Views
Heh. - 16/11/2010 11:55:40 PM 741 Views
mostly agree - 16/11/2010 11:18:14 PM 692 Views
. . . and now I'm thinking you're the one willfully misunderstanding. - 16/11/2010 05:36:15 PM 767 Views
Not willful, at least. - 17/11/2010 12:29:42 AM 729 Views
sorry - 16/11/2010 11:24:44 PM 796 Views
Well, you know what I was going on about, if that helps? *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:25:18 PM 451 Views
"Subversion" has the connotation of treason, however wrongly. - 15/11/2010 01:32:06 PM 821 Views
Re: Non-sequitur, non-sequitur, CAPS LOCK, opinion, CAPS LOCK. - 15/11/2010 10:45:41 PM 637 Views
Either my mind moves much faster than ya'lls, or ya'll are deliberately missing the point. - 16/11/2010 12:05:28 AM 839 Views
I am curious. - 16/11/2010 01:10:52 AM 681 Views
Argggh, ya got me! - 16/11/2010 05:11:41 PM 682 Views
the dictionary has -nia and -iums. - 16/11/2010 05:16:32 PM 783 Views
I prefer "millennia" but recall someone telling me that's not technically right. - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 726 Views
well, in American English, they're apparantly both "correct" *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:13:40 PM 491 Views
In American English, almost anything is. - 17/11/2010 01:02:15 AM 821 Views
It is right. It's the one thing that's easy in Latin and Greek declensions. - 16/11/2010 06:33:12 PM 734 Views
You call then "neutral" over there? Interesting. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:42:00 PM 484 Views
Neutral, neutrum, neuter, whatever. Details. *NM* - 16/11/2010 06:45:29 PM 429 Views
Do only neuter words end in -um? - 16/11/2010 06:57:39 PM 803 Views
Yes. I think so, anyway - been a good while since I had Latin. - 16/11/2010 07:12:09 PM 785 Views
Thanks. Maybe that's what I'm remembering. - 16/11/2010 07:17:05 PM 761 Views
IIRC, the number of "n"s was the issue. - 17/11/2010 01:06:24 AM 775 Views
Should definitely be two. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:48:51 AM 393 Views
Ah, thanks. - 17/11/2010 02:08:08 AM 773 Views
Silly laptops.... - 16/11/2010 05:32:34 PM 868 Views
- 16/11/2010 05:35:22 PM 703 Views
I'm horrible about using "conjugate" as a blanket term. - 17/11/2010 01:09:34 AM 825 Views
I'm definitely missing the point. - 16/11/2010 06:58:17 AM 794 Views
Well, hopefully we've cleared things up now. *MN* - 16/11/2010 05:30:46 PM 791 Views
I don't know if it qualifies as subversive... - 14/11/2010 02:47:34 AM 903 Views
Re: That's not bad. - 14/11/2010 01:38:02 PM 785 Views
The Chap - 14/11/2010 01:58:27 PM 669 Views
Thanks. - 14/11/2010 03:04:49 PM 768 Views
All my subversive websites are religious. - 15/11/2010 02:26:42 AM 743 Views
Re: I'm certainly interested. - 15/11/2010 03:37:11 AM 762 Views
Well, okay then. - 15/11/2010 04:23:35 AM 833 Views
Some stuff I think is pretty neat: - 15/11/2010 07:24:41 PM 849 Views
Re: Noice, noice. - 15/11/2010 11:01:31 PM 782 Views
That first link is really good. - 15/11/2010 11:18:25 PM 876 Views
Re: Ha! - 16/11/2010 11:55:42 PM 657 Views
Re: Also, I like your poems. *NM* - 17/11/2010 01:02:27 AM 431 Views
Re: Dude. - 20/11/2010 02:14:38 AM 846 Views
you mean besides this one? *NM* - 15/11/2010 07:55:03 PM 333 Views
Re: I AM NOT SUBVERTING NEBHEAD!! - 15/11/2010 11:02:10 PM 771 Views
Re: William Faulkner would be unhappy with my thread. - 16/11/2010 08:29:42 PM 741 Views
My work here is done. - 16/11/2010 08:34:22 PM 709 Views
Re: Yes, it's fairly obvious that you need to respond. *NM* - 16/11/2010 11:40:10 PM 458 Views
I often wish I didn't. - 17/11/2010 01:49:33 AM 667 Views
I'm calling you out on this one. - 18/11/2010 12:06:17 AM 724 Views
It's not perfect, but it's the lesser of many evils, IMHO. - 18/11/2010 01:12:43 AM 788 Views
You people with your words. - 16/11/2010 08:34:17 PM 858 Views
. - 16/11/2010 08:54:22 PM 643 Views
Re: I still say we should start a band. - 20/11/2010 02:42:48 AM 798 Views
Re: Man, that attack on Cameron is brutal. *NM* - 20/11/2010 02:47:12 AM 411 Views
Re: Awesome. - 16/11/2010 11:38:29 PM 774 Views

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