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Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts Send a noteboard - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM

They were some ruthless bastards without a doubt. I was sinply objecting the over simplified notion that one day the Crusders just up and decided to attack the poor Muslims who were minding their business.

The other point I was trying to make is that the West and the Middle started off on fairly even footing and Islam was slowing left behind as the European society grew in leaps and bounds. As you mentioned these cultures interacted to fair degree why did the Muslims nations get left so far behind? It was not becuase they were colonized.

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Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 03:55:28 AM 3005 Views
Nah, you're just a bigot. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 08:21:33 AM 976 Views
Yes, I am against religions that call for violence. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:23:31 PM 873 Views
Wasn't aware you were against Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto... *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2013 12:59:04 PM 936 Views
Where does Christianity call for violence? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 03:55:11 PM 1498 Views
Dueteronomy 13: 1-5 states that you must kill prophets of other religions. Hieshyn - 23/05/2013 07:44:48 PM 1607 Views
The Old Testament is not Christianity. It is where Christianity CAME from. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:25:12 PM 889 Views
FALSE! Dannymac - 24/05/2013 01:41:50 PM 1613 Views
*sigh* And in fulfilling the "law" he created a new covenant which supplanted the old.. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:09:43 PM 1560 Views
All the death of Christ did was attone for the sins of the world. Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 03:00:26 AM 1789 Views
Sorry, you are wrong. HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:17:51 PM 1587 Views
...I can think of a rather larger difference. Starts with J and ends with S. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/05/2013 11:54:28 PM 972 Views
Yeah, but not really, both religions acknowledge his existence, but differ on his role. HyogaRott - 29/05/2013 06:00:03 PM 1603 Views
Net result: All of God's children can enter into Heaven. Hieshyn - 30/05/2013 05:26:20 PM 1816 Views
No. The New Covenant SUPPLEMENTS, not supplants, the Old. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:45:55 AM 1879 Views
Ok....and? Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:36:55 PM 1461 Views
You asked for an example, I gave one. I'm not here to argue with you. *NM* Hieshyn - 26/05/2013 02:57:27 AM 898 Views
You might want to slap some qualifiers on there *NM* Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:50:43 PM 927 Views
Actually, I very intentionally didn't put any qualifiers on that... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:38:24 PM 1531 Views
The Cleansing of the Temple shows a legitimized use of physical force. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:05:55 AM 960 Views
Oh, boo hoo.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 03:50:18 PM 1572 Views
LOL. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 04:45:50 PM 1509 Views
Violence.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:32:47 PM 1552 Views
Whipping people to drive them away of something is violence. It's not negotiable. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:06:42 PM 1379 Views
You are something... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:29:03 PM 1451 Views
We've gone from "Where does Christianity call for violence?" to "not all violence is bad." *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:09:30 PM 959 Views
To be fair, that is a good journey to make. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:51:17 AM 1494 Views
Also, spanking has been pretty soundly debunked as good parenting. Maybe not a good analogy. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:16:18 PM 929 Views
Because children are more behaved now.... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:21:43 PM 1428 Views
I don't favor spanking but the studies 'debunking it' are mostly 'bunk' Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:29:28 PM 1518 Views
Yes. nossy - 24/05/2013 10:42:51 PM 1436 Views
Re: Yes. Isaac - 25/05/2013 12:22:56 AM 1525 Views
Congratulations; you now understand why (or one reason) my posts tend to run long. Joel - 12/08/2013 02:53:24 AM 1722 Views
You know better than that. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 06:52:32 AM 1509 Views
I think you just claimed that my statement as to my opinion is anecdotal evidence of that opinion Isaac - 25/05/2013 09:26:21 AM 1603 Views
I was talking about your reference to your upbringing as relevant to the statistical trend. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 09:49:19 AM 865 Views
Yes, but I wasn't claiming it was relevant in that way Isaac - 25/05/2013 10:15:52 AM 1463 Views
... ? *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 12:58:43 PM 913 Views
I couldn't remember the code for *NM* Isaac - 25/05/2013 07:57:48 PM 858 Views
I wouldn't belong to any other kind of religion. Cannoli - 25/05/2013 01:21:45 AM 1489 Views
And the night was finished with a mob of white men attacking the police in the name of bigotry snoopcester - 23/05/2013 09:51:02 AM 1385 Views
In the name of a religion that preaches violence? Anonymous2000 - 23/05/2013 12:21:59 PM 1556 Views
Islam "preaches" violence just about as much as Christianity does. Nebhead - 23/05/2013 12:46:00 PM 1510 Views
it's actually pretty funny because many people understand Islam to, derivatively, mean peace Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 01:44:18 PM 1513 Views
Your argument is logically flawed Tom - 23/05/2013 02:02:33 PM 1588 Views
Re: Your argument is logically flawed Fox and Ravens - 23/05/2013 02:34:22 PM 1611 Views
No, it actaully does not. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 01:51:51 PM 1570 Views
Maybe they will be, I don't know, KILLED for standing up Nighthawk - 23/05/2013 02:24:59 PM 1412 Views
Exactly HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:52:25 PM 1502 Views
Couple of things nossy - 23/05/2013 08:13:57 PM 1837 Views
Unfortunately they are NOT consistant in their messaging... see my link HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:30:53 PM 1657 Views
Well, "consistent" doesn't mean "never says things HyogaRott doesn't support." nossy - 23/05/2013 09:46:51 PM 1455 Views
There is a difference between putting forth a good PR spin occasionally and making a stand. HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:55:48 AM 1492 Views
Really? Of all the criticisms you could make of Qaradawi, you whine about that? Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:58:50 PM 1511 Views
I think the key point there is that the MCB supported him for a visa in spite of that... Isaac - 23/05/2013 11:05:14 PM 1516 Views
So much for my attempt to bring a little levity to things. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:07:24 PM 1543 Views
My ability to detect humor and sarcasm in writing is very sporadic Isaac - 24/05/2013 10:28:03 PM 1385 Views
That's a shame. Legolas - 24/05/2013 11:55:37 PM 1367 Views
Re: That's a shame. Isaac - 25/05/2013 02:25:31 AM 1392 Views
Re: That's a shame. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:17:13 PM 1352 Views
Sure, I'll bite. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:23:54 PM 1551 Views
Until the "unwashed masses" no longer show up dancing in the streets... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 09:40:59 PM 1447 Views
I hope you like black and white. nossy - 23/05/2013 09:50:03 PM 1367 Views
Not sure which point you think I missed that I should have responded to... HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 01:52:20 AM 1447 Views
I think I must have confused you. nossy - 24/05/2013 08:46:42 PM 1355 Views
I suppose that depends on which "points" precisely you thought you were making. Legolas - 23/05/2013 09:54:55 PM 1427 Views
Not really HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 02:36:41 AM 1453 Views
Yawn. Bored now. Legolas - 24/05/2013 08:18:27 PM 1406 Views
whatever *NM* HyogaRott - 28/05/2013 04:18:56 PM 810 Views
Do "unwashed masses" publicly APOLOGIZING for terrorism count? Joel - 12/08/2013 03:04:56 AM 1704 Views
Re: No, it actaully does not. Stephen - 24/05/2013 02:29:04 AM 1569 Views
Now let's not start with bullshit here Tom - 23/05/2013 01:54:48 PM 1787 Views
Tom, this is a rare occurance when we agree. HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 03:59:49 PM 1380 Views
That may be so, but the response was addressed to Ben. Tom - 23/05/2013 04:13:47 PM 1481 Views
Oops, my bad messed up reading the discussion tree... HyogaRott - 23/05/2013 06:15:34 PM 1457 Views
Excellent post - anyone that thinks all religions are the same is a complete moron. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:32:26 AM 1613 Views
I don't approve of a great deal of popular Islamic thought. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 05:13:51 AM 1642 Views
My thoughts exactly. *NM* ironclad - 24/05/2013 09:13:18 AM 811 Views
I agree. *NM* Stephen - 24/05/2013 12:05:46 PM 876 Views
Do you think that it will truly happen? Jeordam - 24/05/2013 05:47:50 PM 1563 Views
Might have something to do with colonialists ruining everything they can get their hands on. Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 06:09:13 PM 1473 Views
The first step on the road to recovery is aknowledging your responsibility for where you are and do HyogaRott - 24/05/2013 06:22:42 PM 1448 Views
Oh, so its our fault... Jeordam - 24/05/2013 06:38:14 PM 1430 Views
It's always our fault *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:40:24 PM 1005 Views
In general, I agree nossy - 24/05/2013 09:01:53 PM 1596 Views
That word "our" is interesting, don't you think? Legolas - 24/05/2013 09:09:24 PM 1477 Views
That was beautiful. *NM* Ghavrel - 24/05/2013 09:12:09 PM 926 Views
No, Ghavrel was doing that ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 12:03:09 AM 1525 Views
I'm sure we all do it, that's kind of the point. Legolas - 25/05/2013 12:26:25 AM 1362 Views
but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 02:20:21 AM 1577 Views
Exactly. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:26:57 AM 1511 Views
Hyperbole? nossy - 25/05/2013 09:57:56 PM 1357 Views
Has anyone ever told you that? Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:33:32 PM 1621 Views
No, I really don't think so. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:18:05 AM 1422 Views
*bashes face against keyboard in frustration* ßelals Girl - 25/05/2013 09:28:58 PM 1375 Views
Perhaps I should bow out and let Ghavrel speak for himself, then. Legolas - 25/05/2013 09:53:28 PM 1544 Views
It's accurate. *NM* Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:25:04 PM 893 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. nossy - 25/05/2013 09:49:48 PM 1439 Views
Re: but apparently it's only okay for some groups/people and not others. ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 12:48:45 AM 1555 Views
Hm nossy - 26/05/2013 10:10:49 AM 1502 Views
Also, yeah. Historically oppressive groups aren't equal to historically oppressed groups. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:31:58 PM 1522 Views
Too simplistic AND a blatant justification for double standards I thought you didn't have ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:02:07 AM 1469 Views
That's not racism. Racism requires systematic oppression. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:14:08 AM 876 Views
No ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 01:57:11 AM 1524 Views
Where whitey firmly belongs, in no small part because of posts like that. Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 02:00:59 AM 1472 Views
Lulz, you're claiming every member of a group deserves something because of what I said? ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 02:11:36 AM 1457 Views
And now you know how Muslims feel. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 03:48:33 AM 920 Views
I already knew ßelals Girl - 26/05/2013 04:02:02 AM 1400 Views
Just about every group has historically oppressed and BEEN oppressed at some time. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:00:54 AM 1535 Views
No. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:28:24 PM 1433 Views
Oh, I don't think he's talking about past "colonialism" only. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:18:11 AM 1467 Views
Possibly. Some people do, to be sure, and there is some truth in that view. Legolas - 25/05/2013 11:27:36 AM 1354 Views
What a load of bullshit. Tom - 25/05/2013 06:14:02 AM 1444 Views
I don't think you can reasonably claim to separate Salafi thought from the geopolitics of the time. Ghavrel - 25/05/2013 10:23:03 PM 1468 Views
This is why I want to get the HELL out of there. Joel - 12/08/2013 04:16:39 AM 1587 Views
The difference with Islam is they lost the empire game but they were conquers random thoughts - 27/05/2013 12:42:05 AM 1562 Views
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of that. Legolas - 27/05/2013 07:06:53 PM 1419 Views
Yes it was very complex and the Crusaders were not saints (even the sainted ones) random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:15:57 AM 1524 Views
Fair enough on all counts, then. *NM* Legolas - 29/05/2013 07:37:34 PM 850 Views
No, it had a bunch of opportunistic brown folks systematically dismantling it for centuries. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:43:00 AM 1477 Views
Some of my ancestors lived and caved and bashed each over the heads with rocks random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:38:56 PM 1465 Views
Well yes. nossy - 26/05/2013 05:08:08 PM 1410 Views
I would prefer to say that random thoughts - 27/05/2013 01:26:57 AM 1607 Views
Of course you would. nossy - 27/05/2013 10:19:46 AM 1523 Views
I in no way support profiling people based on race or religion random thoughts - 29/05/2013 04:11:01 AM 1611 Views
Ok. nossy - 29/05/2013 08:54:34 PM 1617 Views
I think about the evolution of Western religion a lot. Joel - 12/08/2013 03:23:37 AM 1842 Views
There has been 14,000+ terrorist actions in the name of Islam since 9/11. Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:30:30 AM 1671 Views
That isn't a grown up answer. snoopcester - 23/05/2013 04:35:16 PM 1526 Views
Re: In the name of a religion that preaches violence? ßelals Girl - 23/05/2013 07:28:42 PM 1508 Views
His head will only be chopped off is he draws or insults Muhammad! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:34:21 AM 911 Views
What does he have to do to get on TV? *NM* ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 07:45:53 PM 844 Views
Statistically snoopcester - 24/05/2013 10:22:29 AM 1570 Views
What kind of horrifying bugs to you guys HAVE over there??? ßelals Girl - 24/05/2013 02:13:23 PM 1561 Views
Hardly any snoopcester - 24/05/2013 02:16:46 PM 1689 Views
Your solution is profiling...because it's time to *stop* thinking all folks are the same? *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 02:36:32 PM 811 Views
I don't think we've ever encouraged people to think all folks are the same Isaac - 23/05/2013 07:29:54 PM 1375 Views
"Perhaps it's time to stop thinking all folks are the same?" ~A2k Sareitha Sedai - 23/05/2013 07:49:12 PM 1372 Views
I think he's pointing to the encuragement of willful blindedness with that remark Isaac - 23/05/2013 08:15:55 PM 1430 Views
I think probably not. nossy - 23/05/2013 07:57:53 PM 1468 Views
See Tom's post above for the facts..... *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 03:36:18 AM 836 Views
That your original post was absurd? Thank you, but I got that on my own. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:09:21 PM 827 Views
It shows what a silly little fool you are, but that's your choice. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:19:04 PM 835 Views
Hey man, you're the one who told me Tom's post had the facts. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:20:53 PM 1405 Views
It means exactly what I said. He did a great job! *NM* Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:23:44 PM 874 Views
Yes, he did. nossy - 24/05/2013 09:30:42 PM 1433 Views
Also, don't tell him I said I take him seriously. *NM* nossy - 24/05/2013 09:34:59 PM 887 Views
But wouldn't religion-based profile activities... Jeordam - 23/05/2013 10:54:33 PM 1370 Views
My brain is slow right now, but I think I completely agree. nossy - 23/05/2013 11:00:31 PM 1492 Views
You mean like this? Larry - 24/05/2013 08:15:16 PM 1578 Views
Sorry bu the comparison isn't valid random thoughts - 25/05/2013 09:50:34 PM 1418 Views
+1 - Larry is an honest guy and will realize his error. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 10:53:14 PM 856 Views
Numbers alone do not change the validity of such Larry - 25/05/2013 11:15:17 PM 1471 Views
Yes it does. Anonymous2000 - 26/05/2013 12:23:27 AM 1471 Views
*sigh* Larry - 26/05/2013 12:46:49 AM 1342 Views
I think asking most Americans for recognition of a non-binary political paradigm is a bit much. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/05/2013 01:16:30 AM 874 Views
no liberalisn is sane and well thought in comparison random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:04:39 PM 1383 Views
no but they do tell a story random thoughts - 26/05/2013 04:27:26 PM 1301 Views
UPDATE - Cleric/Teacher of one of the murderers praises him for "courage". Anonymous2000 - 24/05/2013 09:22:24 PM 1470 Views
Do you have a functional link? *NM* Stephen - 25/05/2013 12:19:01 AM 875 Views
The link works for me (Yahoo news) - here is the text. Anonymous2000 - 25/05/2013 02:05:41 AM 1656 Views
Re: Maybe it is time to start treating muslims a little differently? dart_board - 27/05/2013 02:28:31 PM 2205 Views
Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 27/05/2013 03:22:41 PM 1535 Views
Just as a little aside Tom - 28/05/2013 12:51:48 AM 1407 Views
Ever helpful. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:23:12 PM 1618 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 28/05/2013 04:56:55 PM 2188 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. nossy - 28/05/2013 10:18:40 PM 1587 Views
Re: Please have a look at the attached list and tell me who "they" are, exactly. dart_board - 29/05/2013 08:57:17 PM 2163 Views
I'm having warm feelings. nossy - 29/05/2013 09:38:45 PM 1555 Views
Re: I'm having warm feelings. dart_board - 30/05/2013 12:46:57 AM 1983 Views
"Who else? Major League Baseball. " Joel - 12/08/2013 04:34:48 AM 1791 Views
I can't believe I missed this thread. *NM* Dan - 01/06/2013 10:08:08 AM 1171 Views
How much did you miss it, really? Joel - 12/08/2013 04:38:21 AM 1499 Views
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