Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
Tom Send a noteboard - 23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
Legal:
1. Evidentiary issues may make it difficult to secure convictions for all crimes alleged, whereas a military court can take into account evidence that a civilian court cannot.
2. Procedures followed can lead to major questions regarding whether or not a trial is proper, whether for failure to properly administer Miranda rights and in a timely manner or for other reasons.
Moral:
1. The cost is exhorbitant
2. It provides the defendants a forum to criticize the US and make their jihadi statements
3. It will be a media circus regardless of media access
Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui were all, unlike KSM, arrested in the United States (Reid and Padilla upon arrival). This is a vital distinction from KSM.
You spoke, in your other response, about how great the Federal court system is at making sure terrorists don't go free and also showed you are labouring under the illusion that my understanding of procedural flaws leading to acquittal is based on watching prime time television.
If Miranda rights are not important as you claim to "know from studying terrorism law" (once again, what law school did you study this at?) then WHY did the FBI start reading Miranda rights to combatants captured in Afghanistan earlier this year?
The answer is clear. Testimonial evidence obtained prior to or without a Miranda warning will be thrown out in Federal court. While we're speaking about Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui, let's go through the trials of them:
REID
Assisted the prosecution greatly with his guilty plea and behaviour in court generally. If only every case were this easy.
PADILLA
Many of the counts against him were summarily dismissed for lack of evidence and only reinstated on appeal by prosecutors. Ultimately, he received 17 years, mostly for "aiding terrorists". The case is STILL ON APPEAL due to the harshness of the sentencing for a conspiracy crime.
MOUSSAOUI
The trial was drawn out for five years due to his refusal to plead either way to the crime. The judge refused to allow the death penalty and that issue had to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. Moussaoui appears to have snapped at some point, however, and started doing everything he could to incriminate himself with crazy theories, thus leading to life in prison.
With the exception of Reid's trial, these trials were expensive and damaged the fabric of the US Justice System. Military tribunals would be better. The problem that the Bush Administration had was that it didn't want to give the defendants ANY Constitutional protections. I'm sure the Obama Administration could devise a fully Constitutional system of military tribunals to keep the proceedings out of the media, preserve the ability to use evidence not available in civilian trials and keep costs down.
1. Evidentiary issues may make it difficult to secure convictions for all crimes alleged, whereas a military court can take into account evidence that a civilian court cannot.
2. Procedures followed can lead to major questions regarding whether or not a trial is proper, whether for failure to properly administer Miranda rights and in a timely manner or for other reasons.
Moral:
1. The cost is exhorbitant
2. It provides the defendants a forum to criticize the US and make their jihadi statements
3. It will be a media circus regardless of media access
Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui were all, unlike KSM, arrested in the United States (Reid and Padilla upon arrival). This is a vital distinction from KSM.
You spoke, in your other response, about how great the Federal court system is at making sure terrorists don't go free and also showed you are labouring under the illusion that my understanding of procedural flaws leading to acquittal is based on watching prime time television.
If Miranda rights are not important as you claim to "know from studying terrorism law" (once again, what law school did you study this at?) then WHY did the FBI start reading Miranda rights to combatants captured in Afghanistan earlier this year?
The answer is clear. Testimonial evidence obtained prior to or without a Miranda warning will be thrown out in Federal court. While we're speaking about Reid, Padilla and Moussaoui, let's go through the trials of them:
REID
Assisted the prosecution greatly with his guilty plea and behaviour in court generally. If only every case were this easy.
PADILLA
Many of the counts against him were summarily dismissed for lack of evidence and only reinstated on appeal by prosecutors. Ultimately, he received 17 years, mostly for "aiding terrorists". The case is STILL ON APPEAL due to the harshness of the sentencing for a conspiracy crime.
MOUSSAOUI
The trial was drawn out for five years due to his refusal to plead either way to the crime. The judge refused to allow the death penalty and that issue had to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. Moussaoui appears to have snapped at some point, however, and started doing everything he could to incriminate himself with crazy theories, thus leading to life in prison.
With the exception of Reid's trial, these trials were expensive and damaged the fabric of the US Justice System. Military tribunals would be better. The problem that the Bush Administration had was that it didn't want to give the defendants ANY Constitutional protections. I'm sure the Obama Administration could devise a fully Constitutional system of military tribunals to keep the proceedings out of the media, preserve the ability to use evidence not available in civilian trials and keep costs down.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
No need to interrogate Osama bin Laden?
- 20/11/2009 12:48:27 AM
1229 Views
oO uhm, what?
- 20/11/2009 12:54:13 AM
694 Views
If they're tried INSIDE the US, then yes, they are entitled to due process.
- 20/11/2009 01:44:08 AM
601 Views
Yeah, a lot of people were fuzzy on that till this started.
- 20/11/2009 09:30:39 AM
720 Views
on the other hand, we're more than willing to take them out back with a confession.
- 20/11/2009 06:34:12 PM
718 Views
New York is now asking for $75 MILLION for the KSM trial
- 20/11/2009 01:43:26 AM
650 Views
If this trial were being held in any other country
- 20/11/2009 01:56:07 AM
660 Views
It's a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
- 20/11/2009 02:13:46 AM
686 Views
It IS a terrible precdent, hence you and others are citing it 65 years after WWII ended.
- 20/11/2009 09:23:45 AM
579 Views
Spare me the bullshit.
- 20/11/2009 01:57:16 PM
578 Views
I will if you will.
- 20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
705 Views
- 20/11/2009 02:55:30 PM
705 Views
No, you won't. You never will.
- 20/11/2009 06:14:30 PM
575 Views
You're putting your cart before your horse is the problem.
- 23/11/2009 05:40:46 AM
660 Views
You don't think this is a military struggle? Wow.
- 20/11/2009 02:52:26 PM
645 Views
Allow me to point out...
- 20/11/2009 03:02:33 PM
617 Views
That's the thing, they aren't a terrorist group
- 20/11/2009 04:54:31 PM
652 Views
It would help if you would offer any argument in favour of your stance.
- 20/11/2009 08:43:08 PM
596 Views
I only use the word army cause I can't think of a better one
- 21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
631 Views
- 21/11/2009 04:32:01 AM
631 Views
Military struggles involve militaries.
- 20/11/2009 03:23:14 PM
769 Views
Once again, bullshit.
- 20/11/2009 06:09:31 PM
733 Views
This is wrong
- 20/11/2009 07:41:35 PM
626 Views
We're a long way from the shore of Tripoli.
- 23/11/2009 05:59:19 AM
706 Views
Your little diatribe in the beginning only makes me glad...
- 22/11/2009 05:32:57 AM
750 Views
I understand your "jihadist narrative"
- 22/11/2009 06:36:41 PM
757 Views
No you don't
- 22/11/2009 11:16:18 PM
676 Views
Oh, so you know better than Army attorneys about Miranda rights?
- 22/11/2009 11:52:00 PM
705 Views
I can explain it to you right now if you want?
- 23/11/2009 08:21:48 AM
625 Views
Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
- 23/11/2009 02:56:19 PM
716 Views
Re: Credible legal and moral justifications for not trying terrorists in civilian court:
- 24/11/2009 04:55:12 AM
839 Views
I'm glad that you will never be in a position where a decision you make can affect my life.
- 23/11/2009 12:27:35 AM
572 Views
Actually people of my thinking are already making decisions that affect your life.
- 23/11/2009 08:29:24 AM
703 Views
Please explain to me how military tribunals compromise my principles?
- 24/11/2009 02:54:18 AM
575 Views
And your little hyperbolic rant would make more sense if it were grounded in reality.
- 22/11/2009 11:47:17 PM
594 Views
Looks like we'll get a Not Guilty plea, and a defense focusing on condeming US foreign policy
- 23/11/2009 12:36:47 AM
826 Views
They'll publicly accuse us of tyranny and brutality in front of a jury and without our censorship.
- 23/11/2009 08:27:13 AM
748 Views
My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America.
- 24/11/2009 02:57:13 AM
639 Views
"My main objection is the awful precedent set by trying prisoners of war here in America. "
- 24/11/2009 06:57:34 AM
671 Views
We've had Mohammed in custody for over 6 years...
- 23/11/2009 07:56:49 AM
692 Views
I've already responded to your absurd statements, but let me reiterate a few here
- 23/11/2009 02:59:09 PM
567 Views
And I've responded to yours
- 24/11/2009 04:57:58 AM
639 Views
It's not, at least for me, that we feel the civilian courts are inadequate
- 24/11/2009 05:28:51 AM
630 Views
Good analysis of the situation.
- 23/11/2009 08:17:01 AM
741 Views
It isn't about sending a message. It's about horrible war fighting strategy.
- 24/11/2009 02:59:31 AM
721 Views
No. It's about not using a horribly ineffective strategy just to send a message to terrorists.
- 24/11/2009 09:29:06 AM
611 Views
enemy combatants and terrorists
- 23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
699 Views
- 23/11/2009 08:03:25 PM
699 Views
They're not different because from the Third World, but because terrorists.
- 24/11/2009 08:09:13 AM
834 Views

