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Re: I'll chew... Legolas Send a noteboard - 12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM

View original postI'll start by making my stance on transgenders completely clear. I hold to the notion that it is a mental disorder, similar to anorexia, bulimia, or body integrity identity disorder. Broadly, they relate by an incongruity between one's body and their mental image. It may be a tired comparison, but I have not seen a solid argument against.

I don't think anorexia, bulimia and BIID have that much to do with each other to begin with... though indeed you often see the comparison to BIID as gender confirmation surgery involves removal of perfectly healthy body parts (though not all trans people take that step), just like people with BIID express a desire for, so if doctors agree to do that in the one case, why not in the other. I think the big difference there is simply in the nature of the desire - one is a rational enough desire (even if until quite recently it was an impossible one), the other very much isn't. Now that medical science does allow one to physically change one's gender, albeit still imperfectly and at a cost, I see no rational reason to block it.
View original postAs such, I would prefer to live in a culture that does not pretend it is normal, much less a culture that applies pressure to force society to accept it as normal. Of course, this means that all of this DIE DEI, SEL, or any other three letter WEF initiative, I find abhorrent.

You should still have the freedom to not accept it as normal, of course - that's pretty much the cornerstone of liberal democracy, that people accept opinions and actions of others which they disagree with, as long as such actions don't violate their own rights or those of third parties.



View original postFirst, excepting the minutely rare cases of genetic anomalies, puberty is a choice that has been refined in the crucible of evolution, backed by millions billions upon billions of choices made over the course of countless millennia. Puberty blockers are a novel development that is more or less untested for long-term side effects and has a laundry list of known issues, many irreversible, and includes, in many cases, inability to orgasm and sterility.


View original postChesterton's Fence would argue that doing nothing is going to be the better choice more often than not.

I had to look up Chesteron's Fence, but from what I read just now it has to do with reform in society - changing laws, dismantling institutions, etc. - and how one shouldn't undertake such reform until one understands what the original purpose for said law or institution was, and hence the consequences of changing/removing it. I'm not sure that's very relevant for choices affecting a single individual, except in the blatantly obvious sense that one should take the time and effort to fully and accurately weigh the pros and cons in advance. Which, yes, obviously one should, also in these cases. And sure, the cons now may still be bigger than they will be in the future because we don't know everything yet and puberty blockers still have downsides which maybe could be mitigated with further research. But if you let that factor stop you, there's going to be a whole lot of medical treatments that you'd have to call a halt to.



View original postI would ask you to clarify your point. Are you saying the upsides of waiting for puberty are uncertain since they only apply in the event of the teenager wanting to revert to their birth gender later on?

I could probably have phrased that better. Certainly, not taking puberty blockers means avoiding its side effects and those side effects will impact the patient whether or not they later want to revert to their birth gender. But since those side effects are part of the price to pay to change one's gender, patients who do continue down that path wouldn't regret them, or at least would accept them as part of the price to pay.
View original postIf so, I have to say that is fallacious. As an example, from my understanding, if one wants to pursue gender reassignment surgery, waiting for puberty will allow for more tissue available for a successful procedure. So there's that.

But blocking puberty will avoid some changes that would have to be surgically reversed later - if that's possible, obviously some puberty-induced changes can't be reversed at all, as we see in the debates about trans male-to-female athletes.
View original postBut let's look at your point about our hypothetical teenager changing shis mind. The fact is, teenagers by and large make more mistakes, make more poor choices, and change their minds more often than adults. There's a reason why insurance companies charge higher premiums for car insurance amongst the youth, and it isn't discrimination. It's because teens are a higher liability.

View original postTeenagers are ignorant know-it-alls. They love and hate passionately. They've been fed a thimbleful of knowledge, and think they've got the world all sussed out. "You're still young, that's your fault. There's so much you have to go through." etc etc

View original postI can't really see how option 1 (puberty blockers) is considered a legitimate option in any rational sense, frankly.

That's a reason to be more careful and take more time to assess a teenager's desire for puberty blockers, yes, but I don't think it's a reason to automatically always refuse it. Of course there are many other things that teenagers aren't allowed to do until the day they turn 18 and then suddenly they can (and even one rather minor thing which for some absurd reason they have to be 21 for...), but given that puberty blockers are very much a time-dependent thing and that by age 18, in the overwhelming majority of cases, that ship has very much sailed, it makes no sense to put it in that same category.

Though as long as they're below 18 it does mean their parents have more of a say, and it's always going to be difficult to find the right balance about how much say they should have when their parents hold the opposite view. My view is rather different from yours below, but I'm not sure I could draw a clear line anywhere in particular.



View original postI think dependents need to defer to their parents, yes. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of parenting. You live under my roof, you live by my rules.

I expected something along those lines from Tyr and yourself, indeed.
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“Can you imagine our reading that James Madison or Thomas Jefferson tried to overthrow the gov't?" - 03/08/2023 09:02:48 PM 1121 Views
I'm curious as to your point in posting this. - 04/08/2023 03:17:48 AM 504 Views
The point is that these uneducated dumbass race-baiters dare to lecture us - 04/08/2023 05:33:36 PM 484 Views
. . . - 05/08/2023 02:14:20 PM 478 Views
You're entitled to your optimistic view - 05/08/2023 04:24:33 PM 495 Views
You only think your view is realistic because you haven't studied enough history. - 06/08/2023 04:04:34 PM 505 Views
You're entitled to your optimistic view. *NM* - 06/08/2023 09:18:39 PM 216 Views
Not only is this statistically incorrect, it's historically incorrect. - 08/08/2023 11:35:42 PM 477 Views
Sigh, I understand that it's hard to grasp these days, with our medical miracles, - 14/08/2023 05:52:01 PM 478 Views
Disease is counted as part of wartime casualties. - 14/08/2023 08:17:53 PM 478 Views
And Covid killed 1000000 Americans lol - 14/08/2023 09:49:02 PM 461 Views
I don't think so - 07/08/2023 01:54:05 PM 523 Views
These facts would cause you to be denounced as a "putinite fascist"... - 07/08/2023 05:45:05 PM 476 Views
Well, of course it's going to pass - 07/08/2023 06:55:12 PM 506 Views
Tom, you are being far too reasonable. That doesn’t fly in 2023! *NM* - 08/08/2023 12:22:49 AM 221 Views
He is, which is why, I think, he is wrong. *NM* - 08/08/2023 10:18:32 PM 225 Views
I just can't buy that the political and academic class will give up their grip so easily. - 08/08/2023 05:49:58 PM 461 Views
Academics have been pro Marxism for over 100 years. It's nothing new. *NM* - 08/08/2023 05:59:55 PM 218 Views
Maybe. But they've never been this spiteful or spoiled before. - 09/08/2023 01:29:30 PM 441 Views
No, they only recruited students to spy for the Soviets *NM* - 14/08/2023 06:18:58 PM 213 Views
Yes. They do that now, too. Except it's the Chinese. *NM* - 14/08/2023 09:51:37 PM 217 Views
Do you have sources for that 'far more conservative and far more religious' claim? - 09/08/2023 07:35:50 PM 476 Views
In regards to more conservative, - 09/08/2023 08:35:03 PM 504 Views
I side with Greg and Tom in this discussion. - 08/08/2023 05:57:54 PM 461 Views
I don't suppose linking medical articles is going to help too much here, but... - 08/08/2023 11:28:05 PM 504 Views
Elizabeth, you know I have a non binary grandchild. - 09/08/2023 01:22:32 AM 511 Views
Yeah, I know, I just think that the statistics are dangerous. - 09/08/2023 04:36:40 AM 466 Views
Respectfully, do you truly believe this? - 09/08/2023 05:42:31 PM 469 Views
I'll bite... - 09/08/2023 06:39:46 PM 461 Views
Thanks. <3 *NM* - 09/08/2023 08:27:13 PM 218 Views
Your thoughts - 11/08/2023 04:14:37 PM 453 Views
Yes, that's true. - 11/08/2023 06:11:49 PM 485 Views
Re: Yes, that's true. - 12/08/2023 04:25:28 PM 448 Views
This is not bait, I am legitimately trying to understand. And if I understand correctly... - 11/08/2023 05:17:02 PM 477 Views
As I said, it wasn't intended as perfect analogy - it's about how much say should children have. - 11/08/2023 06:44:33 PM 483 Views
No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 14/08/2023 05:43:37 PM 456 Views
There aren't a lot of people committing suicide over their teeth coming in. - 14/08/2023 08:21:29 PM 469 Views
Indeed. - 14/08/2023 09:50:53 PM 445 Views
Re: No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. - 15/08/2023 04:14:57 PM 491 Views
See, you're willing to discuss, instead of insult. Others on this board might take note. - 17/08/2023 05:18:39 PM 472 Views
Yeah, well, I have the luxury of an outsider's position... - 23/08/2023 11:47:24 PM 485 Views
Nobody is an outsider when reality is being attacked. - 25/08/2023 05:40:43 PM 469 Views
Fun facts - 26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM 518 Views
Not really "fun" so much as "a sad reality of biology", but yes. - 27/08/2023 09:42:14 PM 477 Views
Imagine if you had the same attitude towards trans people. - 28/08/2023 12:02:34 AM 458 Views
I may be no endocrinologist, but I at least understand simple biology. XY =/= XX =/= XXY - 28/08/2023 05:40:14 PM 442 Views
Simple is definitely true. Shame you never learned biology past what you were taught in high school. - 28/08/2023 11:21:38 PM 459 Views
Right, cause we're "butterflies" - 29/08/2023 04:57:20 AM 446 Views
I go to mass more than you. *NM* - 29/08/2023 09:58:09 AM 215 Views
Wow, really? And you still mutilated your body and told God that He was wrong about you? - 31/08/2023 05:44:32 PM 446 Views
I must say, - 31/08/2023 07:04:47 PM 474 Views
Love is being true. Love is being honest. Love is God. - 31/08/2023 07:52:59 PM 453 Views
Really went off the deep end there huh... - 31/08/2023 10:39:02 PM 443 Views
At least my beliefs can't be disproven by a $40 test at Wal-Mart. - 02/09/2023 03:40:43 PM 443 Views
It's ok. Many of us are quite sad for you too. - 29/08/2023 11:10:32 AM 453 Views
I couldn't care less what unbelievers think. You'll meet the Truth, one day. - 31/08/2023 05:45:31 PM 450 Views
No such thing as damnation, but thanks. - 31/08/2023 06:55:23 PM 450 Views
Then nothing more needs to be said. See who support your lies, Ghav? They literally deny Love. *NM* - 31/08/2023 07:54:23 PM 200 Views
He understands love a lot better than you do. *NM* - 01/09/2023 04:46:14 AM 202 Views
Hah! I knew you didn't worship God. Thanks for admitting it. *NM* - 02/09/2023 03:38:43 PM 212 Views
You're simply acting deranged at this point. - 03/09/2023 01:13:20 AM 480 Views
I hope you don't call yourselves Christian. - 03/09/2023 04:11:06 AM 422 Views
Of course I'm Christian. I confess the faith of the apostles and of the councils. - 03/09/2023 11:41:56 AM 441 Views
Would you castrate Michelangelo's David? - 03/09/2023 09:03:07 PM 431 Views
Dude, you have really driven this off the deep end. - 03/09/2023 04:03:16 PM 444 Views
It is not, and I am not. - 03/09/2023 09:06:48 PM 461 Views
You absolutely are - 03/09/2023 09:27:00 PM 424 Views
Caution is not condemnation. Warning is not judgment. - 03/09/2023 11:05:17 PM 442 Views
Bro, I'm not worried about your immortal soul. - 03/09/2023 11:35:41 PM 457 Views
I get that. But Ghav, supposedly, is. - 04/09/2023 12:09:55 AM 463 Views
You’ve expressed some pretty odious and ugly sentiments. - 03/09/2023 10:07:51 PM 457 Views
Yeah, I'm definitely an outsider, and so are you. - 28/08/2023 07:49:48 PM 437 Views
Ok. - 29/08/2023 05:09:14 AM 444 Views
I'll chew... - 11/08/2023 10:35:45 PM 471 Views
What's your stance on parents who refuse medical treatment for their children with cancer? - 11/08/2023 11:12:21 PM 483 Views
I think... - 11/08/2023 11:37:52 PM 478 Views
Really? - 12/08/2023 12:02:12 AM 461 Views
Am I being unreasonable? - 12/08/2023 05:16:06 AM 495 Views
Maybe not - 12/08/2023 03:38:50 PM 487 Views
Most of us don't really like "the gays," either. And referring to people as "blacks" is offensive. *NM* - 13/08/2023 12:34:32 AM 210 Views
... is referring to people as "whites" offensive? I really, really hope you say yes. *NM* - 14/08/2023 05:46:07 PM 260 Views
Unfortunately for whites, gays, blacks, and transgenders... - 14/08/2023 06:09:47 PM 454 Views
Their voice only counts *NM* - 14/08/2023 06:20:32 PM 203 Views
Touché *NM* - 14/08/2023 07:12:54 PM 203 Views
You can always choose not to be a dick online. *NM* - 14/08/2023 08:19:52 PM 196 Views
Now why would I want to do that? - 14/08/2023 11:24:09 PM 447 Views
You're not a dick. You're honest. - 14/08/2023 09:54:34 PM 469 Views
Why not both? - 15/08/2023 03:01:58 AM 458 Views
Sad, but true. - 17/08/2023 05:22:11 PM 448 Views
Re: I think... - 13/08/2023 12:35:05 AM 481 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM 506 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 14/08/2023 10:56:15 PM 452 Views
Re: I'll chew... - 15/08/2023 11:32:12 PM 473 Views
3 weeks later, did you have fun with this thread Tyr? *NM* - 28/08/2023 08:16:13 PM 214 Views
We went a bit afield, sure, but hey, the board has a discussion going, doesn't it? *NM* - 29/08/2023 05:00:03 AM 196 Views
Well take care - 31/08/2023 11:06:43 PM 478 Views
Same to you. - 03/09/2023 04:20:19 AM 458 Views
Seeing things as beautiful or rotting - 03/09/2023 05:21:50 PM 462 Views
I could not disagree more. - 03/09/2023 09:13:31 PM 468 Views
See this is about you - 03/09/2023 11:22:53 PM 461 Views
No, it's about God. - 03/09/2023 11:28:55 PM 454 Views
How much history do you know about Samaritans? - 03/09/2023 11:39:54 PM 448 Views
Friend, you can cut the shit. - 04/09/2023 12:19:56 AM 448 Views
I was going to talk about Mount Gerizim you nitwit - 04/09/2023 01:36:16 AM 457 Views
Oh, my apologies then. - 04/09/2023 07:46:57 PM 463 Views

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