I wrote a long reply with paragraphs that dealt with all of your points, some of them agreeing, others pointing out how you're wrong or at least highly disingenuous, and yes, also one admitting that Vivien's statement about grammar was factually wrong (I admitted my own factual errors already). Might as well delete the lot of it and focus on what matters, though.



There is certainly a difference between those two. But if people walk away from this argument just remembering your statement number 2, with the single addition of the word "many" or "most" between "among" and "American speakers", I think we can all be content. Or as content as we can be without having seen hard data on how widespread exactly the connotation is, anyway.

Nobody ever made your statement number 1. I made part of it and retracted it; Vivien made another part of it and can speak for herself, though I for one don't think she meant it that way. The third part of it is inherently subjective so it's not actually a "claim".

As far as I can tell, everybody involved in this argument learned something out of it, excepting Celia, and your statement 2 comes as close to a consensus as anything I've seen, so seems like a good closing note.