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Why are they lumped together? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/05/2010 05:53:51 AM
Aside from a superficial association of offices and being allies, they are hardly a unit or a couple of paired characters who need to be analyzed together in order to grasp their significance.

By herself, Leane is a nobody. A decent and fairly competant woman pulled down by a friend she trusted blindly, in whom she resumes placing her blind trust as soon as they are back in Aes Sedai society. Whatever her individual and distinct traits might be, they are rather irrelevant until she starts exercising something like free will. As it is, she IS just an appendage to Siuan, functionally speaking. She is not, however, a motivating factor or integral part of Siuan that renders her essential to any discussion of the latter. For example, you could hardly discuss the characters of Perrin or Faile without including the other, but Leane is in no way significant in Siuan's character, except as just one more person with whom she has dealings. Egwene holds more importance in Siuan's character analysis than Leane.

With that out of the way...

What have you got on these two ladies?

Do you like them? Do they deserve what happened to them, or did they make the best of a bad situation?

Discuss

They are not exactly bad or at fault, but simply in over their heads for the circumstances. In other times, Siuan or Elaida would have been perfectly acceptable and suitable as Amyrlin Seat, and might have been hailed as very good ones. However, they were not equal to what the end times in which they came to power demanded, and thus they had to go. Siuan is an Elaida who happened to get on the good side of the main characters, and who was removed before the crises really piled up. Had the order of their reigns been reversed, the story would have been little different. Instead it would have been Siuan seething over the hints she unearthed of what Elaida the Amyrlin was scheming with the royal line of Andor and their connection to the Dragon Reborn, and motivated by her resentment of the events of New Spring to tear Elaida down for the good of the Tower, only to see everything turn to dust in her hands as she tried to pull the strings that move the world which are now attached to broken or severed limbs.

Siuan pretty much deserved her fate, and is sort of representative of what is wrong with the Tower. She was fixated on the Black Ajah because of her terrifying experience with them early in her career. So much so, in fact, that she overlooked the glaringly obvious flaw in her reasoning that became the justification for her enemies. The charge that even her erstwhile supporters in Salidar could not dimiss out of hand was her secrecy and keeping the news of the Dragon's Rebirth to herself. Regardless of what one might perceive to be the rightful prerogative of the Amyrlin Seat, logically, keeping the news of a major sign of the apocalypse from the Hall of the Tower takes a good deal of nerve and arrogance. Why would she do that? Out of her petty ajah prejudices misleading her about the reaction of the Red Ajah and for fear of the Black Ajah. Except her experience in New Spring SHOULD have showed this woman lauded as intelligent and perceptive with great analytical insight that the Black Ajah TOO was trying to keep the Dragon a secret AND they already knew! It would be like a naval officer learning about the impending attack on Pearl Harbor and refusing to tell his superiors out of fear that the Japanese might learn where the US fleet is located. THEY KNOW! That is why they are currently attacking! Siuan was NOT keeping anything from the Shadow, since she herself reasoned out that they were ALREADY trying to kill the Dragon Reborn. All she was doing was preventing the sisters who served the Light from learning that they should be on the lookout for him and try to protect him. Instead, she plans to secretly bring him into the White Tower, where she has seen that the Black Ajah has the power to reach even the Amyrlin herself! How can she hope to protect him in the heart of the Black Ajah's power, when they and she are the only ones who know his importance, when her every move is scrutinized by the sisters who are politically savvy or interested in power (and a Darkfriend who does not fit the latter category would be a contradiction in terms), but she has no idea who they are. She seeks to bring him into the spotlight to conceal him from those who lurk in the shadows with ranged weaponry!

Later on, as events unfold around the rise of the Dragon Reborn, she becomes obsessed with drawing out the Black Ajah and finding them as the most important issue, completely neglecting her own political security and the fact that if she is pulled down, she can do nothing about Rand or the Black Ajah.

In both instances, her obsession with the Black Ajah and her willfully misguided plans for Rand, her error is in her assumption of the supremacy of the White Tower and her misunderstanding of the extent of her and its power. We see her trying to accomplish her Murandian plot by imposing it from the top down, having been raised in an oppressive society and then trained in a strict, ordered hierarchy and never imagining the complexities of the real world, where the lowest may act for themselves, and not according to set-in-stone traditions and unwritten rules of the plots and counter-plots within the Tower. Her isolated and parochial upbringing and education give her an excessive affection for, and an exaggerated view of the importance of the White Tower. She cannot truly grasp that the outside world may not wait on her purging the Black Ajah from her midst or that there are factors beyond her control. Moiraine herself identifies that last tendency when she thinks that Siuan cannot accept that "the world will burn" no matter how they scheme to protect it. Gareth Bryne essentially notes the same trait, however endearing he may find it, in tGS.

We see that her agenda and perception of the correct way to handle Rand differs in no particulars from Elaida's. She also sees having Aes Sedai minders on him as an absolute priority, and her willingness to let him go his own way at any point derives from her absolute trust in Moiraine's assertion that this is simply a technique to properly control him. She tosses out her best estimation of where he is as a ticket to the counsels of the Salidar leadership, and never mind the details of who will be given this knowledge or what they will do with it. Let a couple of Black sisters be sent to "run" Rand with a ton of warders between them, or a couple of arrogant women who might exacerbate his suspicion and hostility toward Aes Sedai, or anyone at all - so long as Siuan can get back in the councils of power. In her mind, anything can be fixed if you have sufficient Aes Sedai authority.

Siuan, like the Tower, overestimates her importance in the scheme of things, and labors under the delusion that she is more of a player than she truly is.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Character discussion 2 : Siuan Sanche and Leane Sharif - 09/05/2010 06:01:33 PM 5123 Views
The "Shrinking of Siuan" after stilling destroyed my initial awe for the Amyrlin positition... - 09/05/2010 07:07:09 PM 1130 Views
yeah, but then again ... - 09/05/2010 09:05:36 PM 932 Views
That's total nonsense... - 10/05/2010 08:34:08 AM 1175 Views
No, THAT's total nonsense... - 10/05/2010 09:27:41 AM 1051 Views
He raised other issues too - 10/05/2010 11:04:52 AM 1050 Views
You seem to deal in bad analogies... - 10/05/2010 05:14:47 PM 1057 Views
You've got an irritating manner about you. No wonder you find Aes Sedai so believable. - 10/05/2010 05:53:00 PM 920 Views
Hello Pot. I'm Kettle. - 10/05/2010 06:41:58 PM 917 Views
Hello Kettle. I'm Frying pan *NM* - 11/05/2010 03:43:20 PM 508 Views
Hello Frying pan. I'm Skillet. *NM* - 12/05/2010 11:50:33 PM 523 Views
I usually agree about his manner, but he's right here. - 12/05/2010 04:24:28 AM 1005 Views
Re: No, THAT's total nonsense... - 19/05/2010 04:39:07 PM 964 Views
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. - 12/05/2010 06:32:00 AM 963 Views
Both wonderful characters... - 10/05/2010 12:49:44 AM 884 Views
They deserved to be deposed and stilled, I think ... - 10/05/2010 02:47:35 PM 1090 Views
"They"? - 10/05/2010 05:16:54 PM 993 Views
Good point ... - 10/05/2010 06:45:52 PM 1131 Views
Re: Good point ... - 10/05/2010 06:49:19 PM 1011 Views
Re: Good point ... - 11/05/2010 03:43:43 PM 1173 Views
Leanne was not an Overseer - 17/05/2010 02:40:45 AM 1003 Views
Re: "They"? - 11/05/2010 02:53:23 PM 1052 Views
And she was eventually brought in on the secrets as well... - 12/05/2010 04:38:52 AM 1009 Views
I don't know if I agree with this - 11/05/2010 03:19:20 PM 1028 Views
The thing is ... - 11/05/2010 09:06:15 PM 960 Views
I get what you are saying, but the quote is from much earlier - 14/05/2010 03:14:17 PM 791 Views
I totally unagree... - 17/05/2010 11:16:50 AM 1194 Views
I like Leane, and respected Siuan until RJ mauled her character - 10/05/2010 05:55:08 PM 940 Views
She was probably the sacrificial lamb in place of Moiraine - 10/05/2010 06:25:39 PM 895 Views
The deck was certainly stacked against Siuan from the very beginning - 11/05/2010 02:44:05 PM 957 Views
This is a main reason I hope Siuan and Leanne get their full strength restored - 11/05/2010 02:25:31 PM 981 Views
I don't really agree - 11/05/2010 05:35:44 PM 925 Views
Re: I don't really agree - 11/05/2010 06:28:48 PM 1010 Views
I hope so, as well. - 13/05/2010 05:31:36 PM 956 Views
Re: Character discussion 2 : Siuan Sanche and Leane Sharif - 11/05/2010 05:06:51 PM 1147 Views
I'm still annoyed that Siuan is not going to face the consequences of lying about the Reds. - 12/05/2010 05:18:47 AM 980 Views
In Egwene's defense, it would be hypocritical of her to bring that up after profiting from it - 12/05/2010 05:59:57 AM 977 Views
Oh, I never expected Egwene to do something about this. - 12/05/2010 06:12:35 AM 860 Views
Well she's off forging a relationship with the Asha'man - you know, useful stuff? *NM* - 12/05/2010 06:39:04 AM 574 Views
Are you claiming that Pevara was the only woman in the entire Red Ajah to be offended by that lie? *NM* - 12/05/2010 07:15:40 AM 518 Views
The Reds aren't petty - 12/05/2010 04:52:50 PM 842 Views
Are you kidding? - 12/05/2010 06:14:46 PM 970 Views
Unless of course there is truth to it - 17/05/2010 01:50:27 PM 966 Views
There is none. - 17/05/2010 07:09:59 PM 961 Views
Uhhh? - 17/05/2010 08:45:15 PM 870 Views
... - 17/05/2010 11:08:05 PM 1005 Views
Re: ... - 18/05/2010 05:25:33 AM 951 Views
Seriously, are you kidding? [EDIT] - 18/05/2010 06:06:01 AM 941 Views
*sigh* - 18/05/2010 12:30:43 PM 997 Views
So, you're not kidding. - 18/05/2010 09:12:27 PM 887 Views
Re: So, you're not kidding. - 18/05/2010 10:25:19 PM 924 Views
Re: So, you're not kidding. - 19/05/2010 12:41:09 AM 1015 Views
So, Tsutama... - 19/05/2010 05:29:56 PM 1080 Views
Ugh. - 20/05/2010 04:05:43 AM 835 Views
WTF? - 20/05/2010 05:25:42 PM 900 Views
F-T is right - 19/05/2010 12:32:33 AM 999 Views
On the minority thing... - 18/05/2010 04:26:15 PM 975 Views
That's exactly the problem. - 18/05/2010 08:51:45 PM 829 Views
There is no rewriting... - 18/05/2010 08:57:50 PM 830 Views
Re: There is no rewriting... - 18/05/2010 09:21:31 PM 938 Views
Really do you have a quote supporting the fact that there has never been a FD supported by a Red? - 18/05/2010 09:39:31 PM 972 Views
Of course..., I'll provide it as soon as you prove you're not a Nazi serial child rapist. - 18/05/2010 10:06:23 PM 797 Views
why so pissy? - 19/05/2010 03:34:22 PM 968 Views
Sorry. - 20/05/2010 04:16:43 AM 897 Views
Re: Sorry. - 20/05/2010 08:19:13 AM 788 Views
Re: Sorry. - 20/05/2010 08:33:54 AM 1000 Views
Re: Sorry. - 20/05/2010 01:26:47 PM 808 Views
Interesting. - 20/05/2010 07:34:45 PM 896 Views
Re: Interesting. - 21/05/2010 05:07:07 AM 915 Views
Re: Interesting. - 21/05/2010 06:28:05 AM 853 Views
LOL - 21/05/2010 02:50:29 PM 856 Views
... - 21/05/2010 08:23:08 PM 1047 Views
There may be one explanation... - 13/05/2010 10:04:46 PM 870 Views
That doesn't make sense. - 13/05/2010 10:54:53 PM 1001 Views
it was about more than just male channelers - 18/05/2010 09:50:14 PM 1008 Views
Yes, that's true. - 18/05/2010 10:07:22 PM 1005 Views
I'm also certain the majority of the Red had no clue/involvement - 20/05/2010 10:24:54 PM 901 Views
That's also true. - 20/05/2010 10:29:11 PM 892 Views
Okay I'm leaving you alone ... you clearly don't want to continue - 20/05/2010 10:31:01 PM 888 Views
Why are they lumped together? - 12/05/2010 05:53:51 AM 1148 Views
for practical purposes - 12/05/2010 04:50:48 PM 866 Views
AS shrunk after stilling; Siuan and Leane became huge. - 12/05/2010 10:50:50 PM 896 Views
Re: AS shrunk after stilling; Siuan and Leane became huge. - 12/05/2010 11:05:17 PM 1012 Views
No, I don't think so - 13/05/2010 05:10:03 AM 834 Views
Let's just say we disagree. - 17/05/2010 11:15:31 PM 955 Views
Bah! - 18/05/2010 04:33:40 PM 923 Views
Pfft - 18/05/2010 05:31:16 PM 930 Views
You don't have to intimidate people to manipulate them. - 19/05/2010 12:46:02 AM 778 Views

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