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Re: The main problem with Graendal is... DomA Send a noteboard - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM
Thus, she fails the intuitively obvious-test


WHAT intuitively obvious test?

Jordan admitted years that was a joke, that he served at that Q&A the smart ass answer one of his physics teachers used to give his students when they didn't get a difficult problem. He admitted he was pulling our leg, and that he was enjoying it!!!

He even has contradicted the "intuitively obvious" joke elsewhere by saying there were some clues but no red flag. A red flag is slang for an obvious clue.... he said there were none!

The fact it's a joke aside, Graendal as a suspect is still perfectly obvious in TFOH. As the culprit (more than by a lucky guess) and in what circumstances no, but as a suspect certainly. It was even intuitively obvious to come up with the very simple theory that one of Forsaken allied with Rahvin was also in the palace, or came to the palace in the aftermath. I know for a fact it's an obvious reasoning to make because I bloody did it the first time I read that scene! So don't come and tell me Slayer is obvious and Graendal isn't! That's a totally ridiculous statement. NO ONE I've seen on any WOT website or newsgroup I've visited has brought up the theory that Slayer killed the BA in Tear or the Grey Men in the WT before WH revealed it! No one! So don't come and tell it's obvious Slayer did it because he killed before in the series.... It wasn't even obvious there was an executioner for the Shadow in the series, that Shadowspawn or a Forsaken didn't perform these deeds!

The closest someone may come to having Slayer as a suspect by intuition (not a pure guess, as your theory) is "hmmm.. maybe the person who eliminated the BA traitors in TDR also came to kill Asmodean". And that'd be a wrong reasonning because when you think this through by closer examinatiom of the text the circumstances of the death clearly indicated it wasn't an execution but a murder of opportunity, whereas in Tear it was an execution. So there's no obvious connection to make between the two events....

OTOH, it's perfectly simple to come up with possible reasons for Graendal and Sammael to have been in the palace and Asmodean stumbling on them by accident (ta'veren twist): they came to meet Rahvin and were very surprised to find the palace in an uproar and al'Thor apparently there - and remained around to find out what happened; they came for spies, they came to try to learn Rand's next move, they came to find out what happened because agents reported Rahvin's death, they came to check if Lanfear was now with Rand and had betrayed them all, they came to see if Rand was weakened enough by the duel they could take him out Etc., Etc. Some of these reasons don't stand the test of the next books and some do, but back in TFOH they were perfectly valid guesses that could come quite close to solving what happened. With LOC and ACOS, you can narrow it down some more, eliminate Demandred as another suspect, and Sammael, then Semirhage. And in those books and TPOD are the clues that the main remaining suspect, Graendal, seems to know something about Asmodean the others don't, and never something shows up that contradicted the notion she may have killed Asmodean. She had the means, she would have motives, and it's perfectly possible to reason out why she may have had the opportunity.

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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2605 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1348 Views
Surely, there can never be enough Asmo threads! *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 730 Views
I have a theory on the killer that doesn't involve Slayer... - 28/05/2010 03:41:23 AM 1150 Views
It's not really obvious... - 28/05/2010 09:08:27 AM 1089 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments - 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM 1001 Views
Far-fetched, IMO - 27/05/2010 04:01:05 PM 1444 Views
very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 751 Views
I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 04:33:06 PM 1135 Views
The way you twist things, it certainly seems so! - 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM 1231 Views
Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1101 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1141 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1176 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1229 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 1083 Views
There is no evidence of this at all - 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM 1062 Views
Yeah, the evil guys don't manage to harm the good guys - 28/05/2010 12:38:57 PM 1038 Views
so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 1062 Views
I disagree. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:50:02 PM 1176 Views
You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say.... - 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM 1130 Views
I think this is your interpretation - 28/05/2010 02:50:14 PM 1076 Views
Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1164 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 956 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 954 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 926 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1276 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1134 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious - 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM 1212 Views
Ok, as we said in the other thread, let's RAFO! *NM* - 27/05/2010 05:57:49 PM 1225 Views
Agreed *NM* - 27/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 679 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 1066 Views
Well... - 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM 1123 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1129 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 1068 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex! - 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM 1120 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 1062 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 1074 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1091 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1233 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1152 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1143 Views
The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM 1066 Views
Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1137 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1207 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1267 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 1049 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1157 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 1028 Views
Re: I don't want Slayer to be the killer - 27/05/2010 07:47:40 PM 1099 Views
Couple of questions - 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM 1127 Views
Be'lal managed to get out NO! - 27/05/2010 10:08:33 PM 979 Views
Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:27:55 PM 1102 Views
Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 992 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 1017 Views
Hmmm I wonder about that. - 27/05/2010 10:58:46 PM 1069 Views
I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly - 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM 1166 Views
We've seen it done. - 28/05/2010 06:32:08 PM 1016 Views
Not the same thing - 28/05/2010 07:00:13 PM 993 Views
Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1160 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1108 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 567 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1119 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 1104 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1126 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 1025 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 1094 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1098 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1152 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 1014 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 1087 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 1061 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 1083 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 858 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 1020 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 987 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 827 Views
Too much? - 28/05/2010 05:16:44 PM 1083 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1204 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 686 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 910 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1114 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1315 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 823 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1245 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 1035 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 1046 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 1007 Views
Doesn't make sense - 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM 1051 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 980 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 688 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1092 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM 996 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 1073 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that - 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM 1039 Views
Well, I don't think so. - 29/05/2010 02:43:28 PM 1060 Views
yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1129 Views
Again... - 29/05/2010 03:09:06 PM 1125 Views
Taking things NO - 29/05/2010 03:12:24 PM 1098 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 934 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 937 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 990 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 945 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 986 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 945 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 676 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 880 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 885 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 1019 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1118 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 1060 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 985 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 1090 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1105 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 1020 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 970 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 1021 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 1005 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 1064 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1113 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 1035 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 964 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 674 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 899 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 534 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 725 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 1063 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 1059 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 1022 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 1015 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 699 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1124 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 985 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 1008 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 1053 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 1004 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 1093 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 1046 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 1018 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 1075 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1150 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 1031 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 999 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 1078 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1124 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 1085 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 1079 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1165 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 915 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 1005 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 966 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1117 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 1051 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 1042 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 968 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 1010 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 1089 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1472 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 1028 Views

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